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Considered for prosecution
ikodel
post Fri, 21 Dec 2018 - 00:43
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Hi I received a letter with wording that I am being considered for prosecution under the undue care for other road users.

There was time, date and location of the offence, but no specific offence stated.

There is no speed camera on the stretch of road so I am thinking it may have been a speed gun operator, although I'm guessing and may not be speed related.

The letter is asking me to confirm I was the driver at the time, and says I am being considered for prosecution, but surely I should be told what for.

I would have been so will send in the proof but can I ask to what I am being prosecuted for first?

Advice welcome.

Thanks.
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post Fri, 21 Dec 2018 - 00:43
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peterguk
post Fri, 21 Dec 2018 - 01:03
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Right now, all you're being asked is to confirm the driver at the time, date and location mentioned. Failure to do so will commit another separate offence.

The driver at the time is obviously not dependent on the alleged offence.

The offence, as mentioned, is driving without due care.


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The Rookie
post Fri, 21 Dec 2018 - 08:39
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QUOTE (ikodel @ Fri, 21 Dec 2018 - 00:43) *
undue care.

I doubt it - that's a good thing.

Without due care (and attention) perhaps, and clearly you have been told what for (assuming its driving without due care and attention) they don't have to tell you what action you performed may have created that offence. Do you genuinely have no clue?

If you have a NIP then please complete the NIP wizard, link top right or also in the 'READ THIS FIRST BEFORE POSTING' sticky.


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Jlc
post Fri, 21 Dec 2018 - 09:50
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Could be aggressive driving, failing to give way, undertaking, lane hogging etc.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Logician
post Fri, 21 Dec 2018 - 11:40
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s.3ZA Road Traffic Act 1988:

Meaning of careless, or inconsiderate, driving

(1) This section has effect for the purposes of sections 2B and 3 above and section 3A below.

(2) A person is to be regarded as driving without due care and attention if (and only if) the way he drives falls below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver.

(3) In determining for the purposes of subsection (2) above what would be expected of a careful and competent driver in a particular case, regard shall be had not only to the circumstances of which he could be expected to be aware but also to any circumstances shown to have been within the knowledge of the accused.

(4) A person is to be regarded as driving without reasonable consideration for other persons only if those persons are inconvenienced by his driving

This post has been edited by Logician: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 - 11:41


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ikodel
post Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 20:00
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 21 Dec 2018 - 09:50) *
Could be aggressive driving, failing to give way, undertaking, lane hogging etc.


It was indeed an alleged aggressive undertake whilst joining a carriageway from a slip road whilst riding my motorcycle. The incident was captured by the dashcam of the vehicle I undertook, and although I am not allowed to see the footage unless I go to court, a Police officer that has viewed the it confirmed this.

I the section of road and I believe I know the incident in question where I was riding behind a school bus that didn't want me to join the bus lane (where bikes are allowed) ahead of him, so he was intentionally blocking my path when I was trying to make a clean overtake.

The slip road is wide enough for two vans side by side so normally there would be plenty of room, but unfortunately I believe I have squeezed up the inside in frustration.

My error and I am guilty of the offence.

I have not yet sent back the form accepting the conditional offer of £100 fine and 3 points because I was considering making a court appearance to see how the driver would give evidence on the incident. What I fear though is further incriminating myself if the footage is as bad as alleged and the court takes a dim view.

Is it possible I would be liable for greater punishment in addition to court costs?

Thanks.

This post has been edited by ikodel: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 20:02
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Jlc
post Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 20:08
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QUOTE (ikodel @ Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 20:00) *
Is it possible I would be liable for greater punishment in addition to court costs?

YES!

Should you want to go to trial then you could see 3-9 points and fine related to your income and a surcharge (10% of the fine, min £30).

Then there's the matter of costs - this could be in the region of £600+ (Assuming this is not Scotland)

Think carefully before 'rejecting' any CoFP.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 20:09


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Redivi
post Tue, 5 Feb 2019 - 14:11
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What EXACTLY have you received ?

Your original post makes no mention of a COFP

In your position, if I was offered £100/3 points, I would accept it
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Dwain
post Tue, 5 Feb 2019 - 14:50
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Does the letter mention 172?

To the experts, does it need to? If it's just a letter and no 172 request is it valid, also does the 14 day rule apply? Did it arrive within 14 days?

So many questions.
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666
post Tue, 5 Feb 2019 - 15:05
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QUOTE (Dwain @ Tue, 5 Feb 2019 - 14:50) *
Does the letter mention 172?

To the experts, does it need to?


It doesn't, but that's academic since the OP has already replied and been sent a COFP.
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Earl Purple
post Wed, 6 Feb 2019 - 10:44
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QUOTE (ikodel @ Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 20:00) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 21 Dec 2018 - 09:50) *
Could be aggressive driving, failing to give way, undertaking, lane hogging etc.


It was indeed an alleged aggressive undertake whilst joining a carriageway from a slip road whilst riding my motorcycle. The incident was captured by the dashcam of the vehicle I undertook, and although I am not allowed to see the footage unless I go to court, a Police officer that has viewed the it confirmed this.

I the section of road and I believe I know the incident in question where I was riding behind a school bus that didn't want me to join the bus lane (where bikes are allowed) ahead of him, so he was intentionally blocking my path when I was trying to make a clean overtake.

The slip road is wide enough for two vans side by side so normally there would be plenty of room, but unfortunately I believe I have squeezed up the inside in frustration.

My error and I am guilty of the offence.

I have not yet sent back the form accepting the conditional offer of £100 fine and 3 points because I was considering making a court appearance to see how the driver would give evidence on the incident. What I fear though is further incriminating myself if the footage is as bad as alleged and the court takes a dim view.

Is it possible I would be liable for greater punishment in addition to court costs?

Thanks.


So a motorbike hating bus-driver. You should probably get a helmet camera so we'd all get both views of the incident.

I'm not sure what the vision of dashcam footage could possibly show as I would have expected it to only show the road in front, so you would have just appeared on the blind side.

You say there was no speed camera so we don't know whether the bus was driving excessively slowly or you were trying to break the speed limit to overtake.
You could have potentially reported him back for the earlier incident of blocking you off deliberately whilst performing a legitimate overtake.

Undertaking on a motorcycle is legal if the bus were actually stationary or stuck in traffic but I guess he was just moving a bit slower than the speed you wanted to progress. Without your own footage we can't tell.
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The Rookie
post Wed, 6 Feb 2019 - 11:03
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QUOTE (Earl Purple @ Wed, 6 Feb 2019 - 11:44) *
Undertaking on a motorcycle is legal if the bus were actually stationary or stuck in traffic

There is nothing that says undertaking isn't legal.

What we have is (for multilane roads)
QUOTE
268
Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake.


DO NOT means you shouldn't but there is no law to say you cannot, if there was it would say 'you must not'.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Wed, 6 Feb 2019 - 11:04


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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Earl Purple
post Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 17:09
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A lot of those rules don't apply to motorcycles and I, like many others, weave in and out of lanes a lot.

The bus driver was probably even more guilty, the motorcyclist is the vulnerable one here. Of course the police, having seen the footage, may have decided to prosecute both drivers. We don't know that and it doesn't necessarily help OP.

I was offered an FPN for careless on my motorcycle in September 2013. Went for court hearing and heard nothing after that. They should possibly have offered you a course.
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666
post Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 17:19
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QUOTE (Earl Purple @ Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 17:09) *
A lot of those rules don't apply to motorcycles


Would you care to enumerate them?
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ikodel
post Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 16:28
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Thanks for the replies.

So the exact statement of the offence was 'Drive a mechanically propelled vehicle on a road / in a public place without due care and attention'.

I did not have any footage myself, but I was captured committing the alleged offence by a dash cam. I'm not certain the vehicle that was used in the capturing of the footage, but it must have been one eligible to use a buslane so could be taxi (unlikely), another motorcylist (unlikely), bus or schoolbus.

I'm pretty certain it was a schoolbus and may have been the same one operated and owned by the school my partner used to work for. One that was driven recklessly giving her a back injury, and launching a kid off his feet on one occasion.

I'm still thinking about whether I should go to court, but I already have 6 points (gained in one day going 6 miles over a 40 limit past a new camera) so I would unlikely be able to argue based on past good behaviour, and also I am wary of additional fees or penalties.

Dashcam evidence prosecution though feels very unsavoury, especially when you don't have rights to see the captured offence outside of a hearing.

Anyway thanks.
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Jlc
post Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 16:56
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QUOTE (ikodel @ Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 16:28) *
but I already have 6 points (gained in one day going 6 miles over a 40 limit past a new camera) so I would unlikely be able to argue based on past good behaviour

It's not relevant to the allegation. (Either for or against)

QUOTE (ikodel @ Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 16:28) *
Dashcam evidence prosecution though feels very unsavoury, especially when you don't have rights to see the captured offence outside of a hearing.

If you are thinking of pleading not guilty then you should consider professional assistance. You don't have to be in the situation where you don't have the opportunity to see the evidence that would be used by the prosecution. (At worst you can change your plea but may lose some of the early plea discount)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 16:56


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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ikodel
post Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 18:14
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 16:56) *
If you are thinking of pleading not guilty then you should consider professional assistance. You don't have to be in the situation where you don't have the opportunity to see the evidence that would be used by the prosecution. (At worst you can change your plea but may lose some of the early plea discount)


Yes I spoke to a lawyer and after he outlined that it is possible the judge could further penalise on viewing of the footage by way of extra points and fines, that there would be court costs of at least £85, plus a victim's surcharge of 10% on top, I have decided I will just take the current penalty and be done with it.

Still stinks though, but that's Britain.
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The Rookie
post Sat, 9 Feb 2019 - 03:22
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If you committed the offence and are punished for it, how is that wrong? I'm confused?


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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seank
post Sat, 9 Feb 2019 - 09:59
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The law states that you're entitled to a copy of evidence that will undermine the case for the prosecution or support the case for the defence.
I'd plead not guilty and ask for the evidential footage and all documents in the case.
As detailed in the thread, there is no offence in the UK of undertaking.
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Earl Purple
post Tue, 12 Feb 2019 - 10:54
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QUOTE (ikodel @ Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 16:28) *
Thanks for the replies.

So the exact statement of the offence was 'Drive a mechanically propelled vehicle on a road / in a public place without due care and attention'.

I did not have any footage myself, but I was captured committing the alleged offence by a dash cam. I'm not certain the vehicle that was used in the capturing of the footage, but it must have been one eligible to use a buslane so could be taxi (unlikely), another motorcylist (unlikely), bus or schoolbus.

I'm pretty certain it was a schoolbus and may have been the same one operated and owned by the school my partner used to work for. One that was driven recklessly giving her a back injury, and launching a kid off his feet on one occasion.

I'm still thinking about whether I should go to court, but I already have 6 points (gained in one day going 6 miles over a 40 limit past a new camera) so I would unlikely be able to argue based on past good behaviour, and also I am wary of additional fees or penalties.

Dashcam evidence prosecution though feels very unsavoury, especially when you don't have rights to see the captured offence outside of a hearing.

Anyway thanks.


You said earlier that the police officer confirmed it was taken by the vehicle that you "undertook".

I have looked on this site:
http://www.motorlawyers.co.uk/procedure/fi...alty_notice.php

QUOTE
The Fixed Penalty is designed to "streamline" the process, with the result that many Police forces simply refuse to supply evidence stating that this will only be produced if the conditional offer is rejected and a Court hearing requested. Although there is no legal obligation to disclose evidence prior to a Summons being commenced, most Police forces will allow access to information upon request and others do disclose it by way of a website or post etc. In our experience, if you don't ask, you don't get. If you want to see the evidence, be persistent and you will probably obtain same.


The FPN for careless was brought in around 6 years ago to simplify the process where prevoiusly they all ended up in court. I think personally they should be forced to make the evidence available. It's probably the most borderline cases where the driver is likely to dispute it, and then they can be the ones that end up punished the most if they defend their ground.

Without seeing the evidence it is impossible for any of us to judge whether you'd win or lose in court, and the same with a lawyer. When I challenged mine it went no further. I believe the police officer was just chancing it and when I disputed and they looked at the evidence they decided it was weak.
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