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TFL Red Route - With NO images, Is this still a valid PCN
Phil_Barker
post Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 14:17
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Hiya, me again.

One of our drivers had an interesting experience recently. He went to get out of his car to knock on the door of a customer hew has dealt with before whom he knows to beelferly and frail, and as he was doing so, he saw an enforcement officer pull up in a vehicle and start to write down his details, so he drove round the block, and call the customner.
Unknown to him, the officer did get his details, and he received the below in the post.

Is it valid, and the driver makes an emotional appeal asking for an appeal as he was doing a pre booked job (not officially supposed to leave the vehicle IIRC)
Or is it an invalid PCN that can easily be quashed?

PCN Page 01


PCN Page 02


PCN Page 03


PCN Page 04


Info Page 01


Info Page 02


--------------------
-----------------------------------
A little bit strange:
Has a love for the Rover 800 2 door Coupé
I have 2! Both a little special and rare.
And 2 other Rover 800's!!!
Phil B :)
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post Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 14:17
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stamfordman
post Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 14:23
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Location?

Purpose of visit? Intention to park elsewhere?

As you know TFL are tough on red route stopping but they must consider discretion.

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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 15:19
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a driver must be allowed time to make contact with their passenger is the first point. assisted boarding is second, Driving away will weaken these arguments so your evidence will need be stronger


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DastardlyDick
post Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 17:03
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Are you a Cab company? If so, your drivers are allowed 3 minutes for boarding/alighting on Red Routes.
Presumably you can prove the booking existed?
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peterguk
post Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 17:21
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You've blocked out the location on the PCN.
Let's see GSV where he parked and the property he was calling at.


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hcandersen
post Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 18:55
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Is this the exemption upon which you want to rely?

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/red-routes...#on-this-page-3


Taxis and some private hire vehicles can stop to drop off and pick up passengers.

Don't tell us the circumstances in a vacuum, what is your defence?
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cp8759
post Tue, 20 Nov 2018 - 20:57
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It would have been better if the driver had stayed there and accompanied the customer to the vehicle. Time to make contact with passengers is part of the boarding / alighting exemption, as per the High Court case Makda, R (on the application of) v The Parking Adjudictor [2010] EWHC 3392 (Admin) (full text at https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2010/3392.html)

However a witness statement from the customer can still support that the exemption was in play.


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Phil_Barker
post Mon, 29 Apr 2019 - 10:28
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Ok, bumping this topic.

There have been some major issues with this: Bailiffs involved now!!!

The reply to the appeal was never received, until the price went up.
Contact made with TFL, and they advised to wait for Order for Recovery through Northampton.
The driver had pre arranged travel for Mid Jan to Mid March 2019, which meant that the TE7/9's would need to be sent when the driver was out of the country.
Prior to this Northampton were contacted about the situation re travel, and the driver gave them written consent fo rme to act on his behalf.
While he was away, and the mail forwarded to me, I contacted Northampton and filled out the forms, only to be told that I wasn't allowed to make the application!
Therefor the payment increased, and TEC advised us both tot make a fresh application on his return.
This we did, only for a rookie error, and the wrong reason was ticked and the appeal was rejected. TEC 'CLAIM' that they emailed back the rejection, asking to resend, but this email was never received by any of the email addresses supplied. We only found out it had been rejected by calling TEC on Friday 26th April Midday after they claim they sent the email on Weds 24th.
A new application was submitted. With delivery, read and delete reports included to all email addresses. All delivered.
A call was made to TFL, who said that they cound not pull off the Bailiff who had already made one visit. This was expected, but had to be tried.
TEC were informed bailiff Action had been started, and it was a matter of urgency.
A call was made to the Collections Agency, and they just plainly were not interested. Not even willing to entertain the idea of holding off for 48/72 hours until today,
Even with supply of travel documents ETC. They then turned up at the drivers hourse early Saturday, and camped outside, repeatedly knocking his door, and not listening to the reasons, or granting an extension. Driver was basically bullied into paying.

TODAY, 9.13AM, the email request for TE7/TE9 was DELETED be TEC without beintg read!!!!

NOW we need to claim back the money from the Colection agents. The driver doesnt dispute the penalty needs paying, just NOT over £203!!! he wasn't in the country and couldn't appeal!!

How do we/does he do this? The whole situation has been a shambles, and I am shocked TEC have failed so dramatically.

If you need further info/ copies of forms, let me know & I can PM you them


--------------------
-----------------------------------
A little bit strange:
Has a love for the Rover 800 2 door Coupé
I have 2! Both a little special and rare.
And 2 other Rover 800's!!!
Phil B :)
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cp8759
post Mon, 29 Apr 2019 - 17:54
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With the best will in the world, if you decide to go off and do your own thing without the benefit of our advice, there isn't much we can do. Almost nothing you say makes any sense, starting with the fact that any TEC application needs to be made by the owner of the vehicle, the driver plays no role in this. And if the driver is the owner, he cannot delegate the filing of a witness statement to a third party (quite aside from the fact that a WS can be filed from abroad).

Basically if you'd kept us up to date, we could have told you how to avoid all of these problems. It seems everything has been completely and utterly messed up, and I doubt there are good reasons (in the legal sense) that could persuade a district judge to reverse things now.

If the driver is the owner of the vehicle, tell him that the next time he gets a PCN he should post on here himself.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 - 17:54


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Phil_Barker
post Tue, 30 Apr 2019 - 08:23
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 29 Apr 2019 - 18:54) *
With the best will in the world, if you decide to go off and do your own thing without the benefit of our advice, there isn't much we can do. Almost nothing you say makes any sense, starting with the fact that any TEC application needs to be made by the owner of the vehicle, the driver plays no role in this. And if the driver is the owner, he cannot delegate the filing of a witness statement to a third party (quite aside from the fact that a WS can be filed from abroad).


A, I was not aware that not all forms need to be witnessed now.
B, We were BOTH informed that Iwould be able to act for the driver, BY TEC in Nottinghma. I have this on record via Email.

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 29 Apr 2019 - 18:54) *
Basically if you'd kept us up to date, we could have told you how to avoid all of these problems. It seems everything has been completely and utterly messed up, and I doubt there are good reasons (in the legal sense) that could persuade a district judge to reverse things now.

Lesson learnt.

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 29 Apr 2019 - 18:54) *
If the driver is the owner of the vehicle, tell him that the next time he gets a PCN he should post on here himself.


1) I am a fleet manager for a Private Hire firm of nealry 300 drivers, originating from arouond 80 countries. Posting on here on their behalf and making notes on the various issues i have found has enabled me to keep a record of all the mistakes Local authorities make, give drivers pre written appeals when they get a PCN in certain places like the Cornhill/Threadneedle fiasco.
2) There is also the language issue where quite a few of the drivers may not understand some of the legal terms used in advice given.
3) Posting myself reduces the number of repetative posts about the same offence/location.

- - - - - -
i was under the impression that money could be claimed back from a Bailiff under certain conditions.
This must surely be one of those situations with false and misleading information being supplied by staff at Traffic Enforcement Centre in Northampton.


--------------------
-----------------------------------
A little bit strange:
Has a love for the Rover 800 2 door Coupé
I have 2! Both a little special and rare.
And 2 other Rover 800's!!!
Phil B :)
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cp8759
post Tue, 30 Apr 2019 - 10:59
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QUOTE (Phil_Barker @ Tue, 30 Apr 2019 - 09:23) *
A, I was not aware that not all forms need to be witnessed now.
B, We were BOTH informed that Iwould be able to act for the driver, BY TEC in Nottinghma. I have this on record via Email.

Even if a form needed to be witnessed, there's nothing that says a form can't be witnessed abroad (we have at least one member on here who happens to live abroad, and happens to be a commissioner for oaths, though whether he'd be able to assist in such a scenario I can't say).

Unfortunately the staff at TEC are not legally qualified and they should not provide legal advice. You shouldn't really rely on anything unqualified court staff say, they're not trained in the law. I've had at least two instances where court staff have outright refused to file paperwork because of their misunderstanding of the civil procedure rules, and only when I made a formal complaint and a judge ended up telling them that I was right, did they finally accept what I was saying. It's not their fault, their training isn't great and frankly neither is their pay.

QUOTE (Phil_Barker @ Tue, 30 Apr 2019 - 09:23) *
1) I am a fleet manager for a Private Hire firm of nealry 300 drivers, originating from arouond 80 countries. Posting on here on their behalf and making notes on the various issues i have found has enabled me to keep a record of all the mistakes Local authorities make, give drivers pre written appeals when they get a PCN in certain places like the Cornhill/Threadneedle fiasco.
2) There is also the language issue where quite a few of the drivers may not understand some of the legal terms used in advice given.
3) Posting myself reduces the number of repetative posts about the same offence/location.

That's all the more reason to come back and check with us each step of the way. Unlike the TEC staff, we kind of know what we're doing. You're not the only fleet manager who posts on here so this is something we deal with regularly.

QUOTE (Phil_Barker @ Tue, 30 Apr 2019 - 09:23) *
i was under the impression that money could be claimed back from a Bailiff under certain conditions.
This must surely be one of those situations with false and misleading information being supplied by staff at Traffic Enforcement Centre in Northampton.

If we want to go into the realms of speculation you could say that if the TEC staff have provided negligent advice (which in itself is a tall order), you might have a negligence claim against HMCTS. However realistically it's not going to be worth the risk, effort or hassle of suing the court service.


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If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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