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Help - Railway Parking Notice (Disabled Bay), Can I appeal?
nannaem
post Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 22:24
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Hi, I am looking for advice as I have received a parking notice and I fear it may have been my own error for not double checking notices.

I am disabled with a blue badge and use a wheelchair, my husband has dementia and I am his carer, we were on our way to Guys Hospital London from Lewes for an appointment and were in a rush to catch our train due to roadworks and unpredicted queues.
Train travel is always stressful as I need to use lifts to access platforms and ramps to board disabled train carriage plus my husband becomes anxious on any journey with crowds so we rarely travel by train.

I was told by someone it is free parking in disabled bay in the Lewes railway station car park, I parked in bay with my blue badge displayed, unloaded my chair then needed to get across the station promptly to get ticket and catch train. We were cutting it fine due traffic so I did not study the notices.

To my surprise I received a PNC notice in the post today so went to the station to get photos of any notices (please see photos to follow). It seems the disabled parking is indeed free but one needs to phone through and get a code at time of parking. I have never encountered this procedure before as I almost always drive myself to our destinations and would get a taxi to the station.

I am wondering if it would be at all possible to appeal under any circumstances and if so would appreciate any tips on what to base my appeal on. I appreciate this may not be possible sad.gif

Many thanks
Shirl








This post has been edited by nannaem: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 - 09:45
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post Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 22:24
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Zydeco
post Thu, 18 Apr 2019 - 00:43
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As they call it a penalty notice under bylaw 14 and threaten you with magistrates court, guess what happens if it goes to court?
They don't get a penny!
What saba(indigo) are offering is pay us or go to court and they get nothing.
So wait for the experts who will tell you how to deal with this, it's easy but takes 6 months which is the time limit they have to take it to the non profit making court.
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Gary Bloke
post Thu, 18 Apr 2019 - 07:07
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Remove the photos of the letter because it is showing your full name and address!!!!!!
Search this forum for "indigo" to find lots of advice on dealing with these situations. You can go down the appeal route or you can just do nothing. Either way, they will not prosecute you and after 6 months they should stop sending you threatening letters because ther ability to take you to court will have expired.
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nannaem
post Thu, 18 Apr 2019 - 09:51
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QUOTE (Gary Bloke @ Thu, 18 Apr 2019 - 08:07) *
Remove the photos of the letter because it is showing your full name and address!!!!!!
Search this forum for "indigo" to find lots of advice on dealing with these situations. You can go down the appeal route or you can just do nothing. Either way, they will not prosecute you and after 6 months they should stop sending you threatening letters because ther ability to take you to court will have expired.


Oops thanks for the heads up, name and address is now depleted blush.gif
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ManxRed
post Thu, 18 Apr 2019 - 10:00
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Others more expert than I will be along soon, but I'm not convinced that 'failing to obtain a valid ticket or voucher' is a byelaw offence.

Byelaw prosecutions have a six month time limit on them, so the trick here is to engage in a dialogue with Indigo that takes you over that limit. So, if they say you must appeal within XX days, do so at the last minute. If they then write back and ask for information within YY days, do so at the last minute, and so on.

Your first appeal should probably be along the 'can you let me know which byelaw has been breached'? But wait for others.


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cabbyman
post Thu, 18 Apr 2019 - 13:32
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Manx Red is correct; it's not a byelaw offence.

Dear sirs,

ref xxxxx VRN xxxxxxx

I am in receipt of your above mentioned communication, addressed to me as Registered Keeper, purporting to offer me a way out of being prosecuted for an alleged offence against railway byelaw 14. Your blackmail will not succeed on at least three counts:

1. 'Failure to obtain a valid ticket or voucher' is not a byelaw offence.

2. The competent authority , not you, could only prosecute the driver, IF a byelaw offence has been committed. I, as Registered Keeper, have no liability under byelaws. For the avoidance of doubt, I have no obligation in law to name the driver and will not be so doing.

3. The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 does not apply because land under statutory control, ie byelaws, is specifically excluded from the provisions.

As you have now been made aware of the above, any further contact that you, or your agents, make with me, save confirming cancellation of the purported charge, will be a serious offence under data protection legislation. IF you are daft enough to continue harrassing me, now that you have been made fully aware of the facts and reminded of the law, YOUR offence WILL be actionable and I will have no hesitation in bringing such misdemeanor to the attention of the competent authority, The Information Commissioner's Office.

Love and kisses.


EDIT your posts to only refer to 'the driver.' This is CRUCIAL.


This post has been edited by cabbyman: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 - 13:30


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Gary Bloke
post Thu, 18 Apr 2019 - 20:36
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All of POFA applies except for Schedule 4 (keeper liability).

This is important because section 56 of the Act is not in Schedule 4 and therefore this section applies to all car parks on private land irrespective of whether or not Byelaws apply. Section 56 specifies that wheel clamping is illegal unless there is specific lawful authority. Byelaws cannot provide the lawful authority envisaged by POFA because they were written in 2005, predating the Act by 7 years. Further, the Byelaws do not define exactly when and how clamping can be used, as is indeed the case for the lawful authority wording which applies to Police and DVLA use of clamps. The conclusion is that wheel clamping at station car parks is illegal, despite what Indigo would like us to believe.

This post has been edited by Gary Bloke: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 - 20:39
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nannaem
post Tue, 14 May 2019 - 07:01
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[quote name='cabbyman' post='1479148' date='Thu, 18 Apr 2019 - 14:32']Manx Red is correct; it's not a byelaw offence.

Dear sirs,

ref xxxxx VRN xxxxxxx

I am in receipt of your above mentioned communication, addressed to me as Registered Keeper, purporting to offer me a way out of being prosecuted for an alleged offence against railway byelaw 14. Your blackmail will not succeed on at least three counts:

1. 'Failure to obtain a valid ticket or voucher' is not a byelaw offence.

2. The competent authority , not you, could only prosecute the driver, IF a byelaw offence has been committed. I, as Registered Keeper, have no liability under byelaws. For the avoidance of doubt, I have no obligation in law to name the driver and will not be so doing.

3. The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 does not apply because land under statutory control, ie byelaws, is specifically excluded from the provisions.

As you have now been made aware of the above, any further contact that you, or your agents, make with me, save confirming cancellation of the purported charge, will be a serious offence under data protection legislation. IF you are daft enough to continue harrassing me, now that you have been made fully aware of the facts and reminded of the law, YOUR offence WILL be actionable and I will have no hesitation in bringing such misdemeanor to the attention of the competent authority, The Information Commissioner's Office.

Love and kisses.



Hi, I have had the following response to the letter I sent as advised above...

"Good morning

Our client advised that this notice was issued because an offence was committed when the driver failed to obtain a valid ticket or voucher.

Under Railway Byelaws, the owner of the vehicle is held liable for all Penalty Notices issued on Railway assets in all circumstances, as such we have no cause of action against the driver or hirer of the vehicle.

I can confirm that The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 does not apply to a Penalty Notice when issued.

Please, confirm if you did make payment for a ticket, how it was paid and forward proof.

Please note, the next response to this email will influence our decision on the outcome of your appeal.

Kind regards"


Please can anyone advise what my options are in response?

This post has been edited by nannaem: Tue, 14 May 2019 - 07:19
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ostell
post Tue, 14 May 2019 - 07:23
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So you respond, after a reasonable delaying amount of time, and possibly in separate sequential letters, how have they determined that you are the owner when you are merely the keeper, how can you possibly provide details of how the payment was made and provide proof when only the driver can do that and you are merely the keeper. Please identify which section of the byelaws is alleged to have been broken, where has the amount of the alleged penalty been defined.
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Gary Bloke
post Tue, 14 May 2019 - 07:44
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You can tell them that you understood disabled parking was free and you were not aware that it had to be booked in advance. Were there any signs explaining this booking procedure, visible from the disabled bay? If not then they cannot expect you to follow that procedure. Your appeal should then be upheld on the basis of inadequate signage.

All of POFA applies except for Schedule 4. There is no keeper liability. Despite what the Byelaws say about the owner being liable, there is no law in this country which makes it a criminal offence to be the owner of a vehicle parked in breach of Byelaws by someone else.

Whatever you say, they will probably reject your appeal. They should then send you a reference code allowing you a second appeal to POPLA or ITAL, whichever one they use. You do this appeal too, you might win on the grounds that the signage was inadequate as described above. If you lose again, you will get a couple of letters from ZZPS asking you to pay the "debt". Then you get a couple more letters from QDR Solicitors. After that the 6 month prosecution window expires and they should stop pestering you.
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The Rookie
post Tue, 14 May 2019 - 09:40
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QUOTE (Gary Bloke @ Tue, 14 May 2019 - 07:44) *
You can tell them that you understood disabled parking was free and you were not aware that it had to be booked in advance. Were there any signs explaining this booking procedure, visible from the disabled bay? If not then they cannot expect THE DRIVER to follow that procedure. Your appeal should then be upheld on the basis of inadequate signage.



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nannaem
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 14:04
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Thank you all for the help, I will update on my progress x
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nannaem
post Thu, 13 Jun 2019 - 11:30
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I am pleased to update everyone that I received an email today to say my Parking Notice has been cancelled. Whoop Whoop!
Many thanks for all the assistance xxx
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