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PCN 01 Manchester City Council, PCN 01 Manchester City Council
Qazitory
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 17:35
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My partner pulled up near the runway of Manchester Airport to enter the instructions into his sat nav. Didn't get out of the car or turn the engine or lights off. We were there less than a minute and an unmarked van pulled up and blocked us in. The man left his car and started taking pictures and then handed a ticket to my partner (driver). He refused to explain to the reason for the ticket and went back to his car. We believe the reason was the double yellow lines on the road.

It resulted in us ringing for the police etc so I've been advised to make an official complaint but I need to still contest the ticket.

The oberservation time is only two minutes but the van parked behind us and blocked us in. Is that grounds to contest?

The street is here: https://goo.gl/maps/vuVHtswPDW62

There was a was sign that is missing from Google Maps but it mentioned about CCTV in operation.
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post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 17:35
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stamfordman
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 17:44
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You mention a van and a car or are these the same?

If you were blocked in when the CEO (traffic warden) started observing you then you may have a case but waiting on double yellows is an instant contravention if no exempt activity is observed.
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Qazitory
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 17:52
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Not sure if this effects anything but this was the ticket given to us!!

We didn't get it wet or deface it etc.

The ticket in the first post was the reprint that the police demanded the 'officer' give to us.

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 18:44) *
You mention a van and a car or are these the same?

If you were blocked in when the CEO (traffic warden) started observing you then you may have a case but waiting on double yellows is an instant contravention if no exempt activity is observed.


Sorry there was only one van.
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stamfordman
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 18:13
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So you were served an unreadable PCN? That makes a difference.

Better tell the whole story - what exactly happened.
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 18:18
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 19:13) *
So you were served an unreadable PCN? That makes a difference.

Better tell the whole story - what exactly happened.


can you tell if both PCN's have the same number?

Post the council photos
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peterguk
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 18:25
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QUOTE (Qazitory @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 18:52) *
The ticket in the first post was the reprint that the police demanded the 'officer' give to us.


So you called the police whilst CEO was with you, and police turned up whilst CEO was still with you?


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Qazitory
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 18:37
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 19:25) *
QUOTE (Qazitory @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 18:52) *
The ticket in the first post was the reprint that the police demanded the 'officer' give to us.


So you called the police whilst CEO was with you, and police turned up whilst CEO was still with you?


Yes I rang the police as we were unsure if the man was a fake or not. The van was unmarked and he had no ID or markings on his uniform. As the man refused to speak with us it was looking like a scam (next to Manchester Airport). The police confirmed he was real and made him reprint the 'ticket'. The man also accused my partner of damaging his body camera (he didn't!). He was highly unprofessional as he smirked at everything we said and refused to answer. Not a good experience at all as now the police need to review the footage to confirm nothing happened. Meanwhile we have been told to appeal like normal.

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 19:18) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 19:13) *
So you were served an unreadable PCN? That makes a difference.

Better tell the whole story - what exactly happened.


can you tell if both PCN's have the same number?

Post the council photos


I've attached the council photos which are terrible!

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 19:13) *
So you were served an unreadable PCN? That makes a difference.

Better tell the whole story - what exactly happened.


As above he issued the ticket and then refused to talk to us sad.gif

I've requested the body cam footage from MCC although I'm not sure on the timescales.
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stamfordman
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 18:53
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Well the police didn't do you a favour by making him re-serve the PCN but as you have the original this may be a winning card (as well as behaviour of CEO).

See what others say. Not a usual one for us.
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 20:20
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The law requires that when acting as a CEO, and serving a PCN is doing that the uniform must identify that this is what the person is doing. If they were not in uniform then they cannot serve a valid PCN, let alone serve a new PCN when the other is still extant

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/section/76


and the guidance the regs speak of

(VIII) On-street activities
42. When exercising prescribed functions 21 a CEO must22 wear a uniform. The
uniform should clearly show:
· that the wearer is engaged in parking enforcement;
· the name of the local authority/authorities of whose behalf s/he is acting;
and
· a personal identity number.
43. It is recommended that CEOs carry a photo-identity card, showing their
identification number and the name of their employer. However, to protect the
safety of staff, it is strongly recommended that the photo-identity card does
not include the CEO’s name on it.
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Qazitory
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 20:39
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 21:20) *
The law requires that when acting as a CEO, and serving a PCN is doing that the uniform must identify that this is what the person is doing. If they were not in uniform then they cannot serve a valid PCN, let alone serve a new PCN when the other is still extant

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/section/76


and the guidance the regs speak of

(VIII) On-street activities
42. When exercising prescribed functions 21 a CEO must22 wear a uniform. The
uniform should clearly show:
· that the wearer is engaged in parking enforcement;
· the name of the local authority/authorities of whose behalf s/he is acting;
and
· a personal identity number.
43. It is recommended that CEOs carry a photo-identity card, showing their
identification number and the name of their employer. However, to protect the
safety of staff, it is strongly recommended that the photo-identity card does
not include the CEO’s name on it.


Thank you for this smile.gif

I thought this was the case but I struggled to get evidence!
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cp8759
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 20:13
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Do you have any photos of the CEO?

Also, from the photos, it's not clear how you were blocked in? Give us a link to the location on Google Maps. Also, the fact that you called the police is very important because it adds significant credibility to the fact that he was not wearing the correct uniform. I would ask the police for a copy of the incident log and the call recording, under GDPR they have to provide this free of charge (Though of course the incident log may need to be redacted for data protection).


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 20:52
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Do not forget the unreadable PCN served on you, please answer my question re the PCN number re serving is wrong, but the answer to that question will direct how a challenge is made
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Qazitory
post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 06:17
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 21:13) *
Do you have any photos of the CEO?

Also, from the photos, it's not clear how you were blocked in? Give us a link to the location on Google Maps. Also, the fact that you called the police is very important because it adds significant credibility to the fact that he was not wearing the correct uniform. I would ask the police for a copy of the incident log and the call recording, under GDPR they have to provide this free of charge (Though of course the incident log may need to be redacted for data protection).



https://goo.gl/maps/vuVHtswPDW62

I tried to take photos but it was just too dark. The man was wearing a high vis jacket so the reflection would just be shown and didn't show the markings (although there weren't any).

The location is here: https://goo.gl/maps/vuVHtswPDW62

The van parked behind us while we were 'stopped' to turn around at the very end of the road.

I called the police and I've been given the email addresses of the police officers that attended.

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 21:52) *
Do not forget the unreadable PCN served on you, please answer my question re the PCN number re serving is wrong, but the answer to that question will direct how a challenge is made


Yes sorry they are the same number. That's about the only information I can make out.
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hcandersen
post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 08:03
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Sorry OP, but this is info drip-feed. Can we have the complete sequence of events.

I was going to post how in heaven’s name the front of your vehicle was facing the yellow lines which, having looked at GSV, which meant you were across the carriageway, not parallel!

You then suggest that you were in the middle of a manoeuvre, bu how could you be if the driver was checking sat-nav.

Deep breath:
We were travelling along **** and turned into ***** in order to *****.

You’d worked out what to do and were in the process of turning round when, while your car had just completed half the turn and was placed across the carriageway *****.

Or whatever.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 13:05
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Qazitory
post Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 11:10
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Tue, 11 Sep 2018 - 09:03) *
Sorry OP, but this is info drip-feed. Can we have the cmplete sequence of events.

I was going to post how in heaven’s name the front of your vehicle was facing the yellow lines which, having loked at GSV, which meant you were across the carriageway, not parallel!

You then suggest that you were in the middle of a manoeuvre, bu how could you be if the driver was checking sat-nav.

Deep breath:
We were travelling along **** and turned into ***** in order to *****.

You’d worked out what to do and were in the process of turning round when, while your car had just completed half the turn and was placed across the carriageway *****.

Or whatever.


Sorry the whole situation isn't a case so I do appolgise!

I've attached an image of the end of the road, and a very rough outline of where the car was, hence the double yellow lines being around the front of the car.


This is the letter I have composed (removing personal details):

Registration Number: **** ***

Dear Sir or Madam

I am writing to appeal a ‘ticket’ received and to complain about the conduct of one of your traffic wardens.

Myself, my partner, brother and his daughter came to Manchester to visit the Trafford Centre on Bank Holiday Monday 27th August and on the way home to Sheffield, we decided to let my niece view the airplanes landing at Manchester airport. I pulled down an unmarked road next to Shadowmoss Road: https://goo.gl/maps/MMmWvKMJMGR2 I stopped at the end of the road to set my sat nav up. No one had left the car and the engine was still running. An unmarked van (**** ***) then pulls behind our car and parks on the double yellow lines. I was unable to move until the van had moved as I had been closed in. I then saw a man in a high visibility jacket walk in front of the car and take some photographs. I wound the driver’s window down and turned my headlights and engine off so I could see (high vis jacket) and speak to him (noisy engine), and I said to him ‘Excuse me, is something wrong? Can I help you?’ He then mumbled a few words under his breath very quietly. He then said something about a sign and then proceeds to pass a piece of paper to me through the driver’s window. I said the sign says something about CCTV (the signs aren’t on Google Maps, so they must be a recent addition). My partner then asked him who he worked for, and it was then I noticed there no was no identifying marks on his high visibility jacket or the van. He told my partner the ‘driver’ had already been told and he "would not repeat himself as the information was on the ticket". I then looked at the ‘ticket’ and there was no information visible on who he was and where he worked (attachment 1). The incident was very confusing and as I had no idea what was happening, and the man was unwilling to explain.

He then started to walk away without identifying who he was, who he worked for and what the ticket was for. He was asked repeatedly by both of us about where did he work and who did he represent, and what was happening. He then proceeded to ignore us, walk towards to his van and insults me under his breath (he told me to f*** off). At this point, I said ‘Excuse me I’m talking to you’ and exited the car. He then stopped and pulled something from his left hand side and moved it towards my face. This caused me to grab what he was moving (hand/camera/potential weapon) and I reacted, and I become defensive as I thought the man was going to assault me. The van was unmarked and he wore no identifying marks to suggest he was an official employee and he was aggressive and antagonist from the start. I asked him ‘what he was doing?’, he said ‘I’m taking pictures’. I then replied along the lines ‘you have them already, and will you talk to me about what is going on?’ He then continued to walk back to his van and entered his vehicle.

My partner had also exited the car, and followed him to his van. She repeatedly asked him who he was and if he was unwilling to answer, we would need to call the police. I also asked him the same thing and said he could be a fake. He wound is window down and asked my partner if she thought he was ‘fake’. She replied to say we have nothing official to prove otherwise. He then laughed and put his window back up.

At this point he then placed a small badly photocopied piece of paper in a plastic wallet, with some information on (attachment 2). My partner then tried the number listed – 0161 905 5868 – the number did not and does not exist! We then explained while his window was up, the number did not exist and was fake. We also repeated that the 'ticket' he had given us had most of the information missing and so had no contact details on, but no reply was given.

At 8.47pm my partner then rang the police on advice on what to do as it was looking more and more like the person was impersonating a traffic warden. The caller handler told us to ask where he worked and to contact the relevant organisation. After informing him that the police had told us to ask him for his employer’s contact details and the legitimacy of the ‘ticket’, he still sat in the van and ignored the both of us. Then the man stated he had a body camera, although this was said with a smirk on his face which was highly unprofessional. We then tried to take a photograph of the van and the driver, although the light by that point had faded.

This man then ignored us again, started his engine and tried to drive off. I then stood at the front of the van, as I advised him he couldn’t leave until he proved the information. After speaking with my partner, she then started to ring the police again at 9.02pm as given his reaction, I was almost certain the person was fake and still was refusing to talk to anyone.

A police van and car then arrived shortly afterwards, which I assumed was the result of my partner’s telephone call (incident **** 27/08/18). I was relieved to see the police as due to this man’s initial reaction when my partner mentioned the police, I was unsure how far he would go to leave the area before the police arrived (including running me over as he was sat with the engine running aiming his vehicle at me). One officer spoke to myself, and the other spoke to the man in the van. I explained the situation to the officer, as did my partner. I also explained to the officer that due to this man’s actions, my niece was very distraught and was in fear (she is only 12 years old). If this man was a legitimate employee somewhere, then I would be filling a complaint with his employer and would like his information. If it was a scam, I would like to press any and all charges against him.

A police officer asked if I had hit the man, I stated I hadn’t. The officer asked if I was sure, as he told me this had been accused by the man. I said I am sure he has a body camera so they would be able to check this. I told him I did block/grab the camera as he pulled it out before I knew what it was, as the way he moved it suggested it was something threatening. The police then took my details and they said they would contact me once they had been provided with the evidence. It was evident that the police understand what had happened. The police also asked the man to print a new copy of the 'ticket' as the first one was unreadable (attachment 3). We then left to carry on our journey home.

We are unsure what it is happening next but it's likely I may need to make a statement to the police once they have the body camera footage. Could the body camera footage be sent electronically to this email address or the postal address below if the file is too large?

I am appealing the ticket on the following grounds:

· The official Code of Practice on Civil Parking and Traffic Enforcement suggests that a five minute observation period should be given, but the ticket suggests that only two minutes was monitored prior to the issue of the ticket.
· I could not move due to the way that the van had been parked behind. Also my vehicle was not parked as the lights were on, the engine was running and no one had left the car.
· The original ticket issued was unreadable and when the man was questioned about this, he would not reply (attachment 1).
· The man did not have any identifying marks on who their employer was and they did not show ID when requested. The law requires that when acting as a CEO, and serving a PCN, the uniform must identify that this is what the person is doing. If they were not in uniform then they cannot serve a valid PCN: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/section/76

(VIII) On-street activities

42. When exercising prescribed functions 21 a CEO must22 wear a uniform. The uniform should clearly show:
· that the wearer is engaged in parking enforcement;
· the name of the local authority/authorities of whose behalf s/he is acting;
and
· a personal identity number.

43. It is recommended that CEOs carry a photo-identity card, showing their identification number and the name of their employer. However, to protect the safety of staff, it is strongly recommended that the photo-identity card does not include the CEO’s name on it.

He failed to deliver a simple customer service. He failed to explain who he was and where he worked. He also failed to explain the reason for the ticket... the very basics of the job! He had a permanent smirk on his face when dealing with a serious event, and was very unprofessional to the point I thought he was a ‘fake’ and I was shocked when the police informed me he was genuine. During this time my niece was very disturbed by the whole incident and was in tears as she didn't know what was happening.

It also should be noted, if he was an official employee acting on behalf of MCC, at no point was any ID visible or official paperwork shown even when asked. It is well known that tourists are often targeted for scams, and the actions of the man led me to believe this was the case. I would recommend that the man needs further training on dealing with the public as the lack of these skills escalated the incident with myself who is a placid man. If the employee had been civil and explained the situation from the start, I would gladly pay any fine that I was justly shown to be owed. I’m still unsure exactly what the ticket is for as no explanation was given.

I’d be grateful if you could look into the event, as a lovely day in Manchester was turned into a terrible evening by someone not doing their job correctly. I could fully understand the 'ticket' being issued if the car was parked and no one had been present, but he could see and hear the lights and engine were still running and so the car was not parked. Instead of asking politely if we needed help or that we were aware of the parking restrictions, instead he chose to ignore logic and refused to answer basic questions, such as what the issue was!

Please let me know if you need any further information.

*** Name removed ***
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cp8759
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 18:09
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This is all very good, the only thing that doesn't add up is that looking at the pictures, at the time they were taken there was sufficient space for you to make a 3 point turn and drive off, so I don't understand why you're saying you were boxed in?

Also, have you asked the police for a copy of the call recording?


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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stamfordman
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 18:52
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It's far too long. You need to condense it into a few snappy bulletpoints to meet the attention span of the council operative, which will be gnat like.

Reads like a short story in Readers Digest as is.

You can go in longer at formal appeal should they reject. Bear in mind this is an initial challenge - I would highlight key points only. Being served an unreadable PCN alone ought to be an instant cancellation.



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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 18:58
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Just keep it simple.

The PCN is a nullity. The PCn served does not contain the information required by statute and the CEO serving the PCN did not comply with s76(3) of the TMA 2004. They are almost certain to reject so lets see their response before going into to much detail
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nextdoor
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 19:15
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 19:58) *
Just keep it simple.

+1. Less is more

There are always going to be exceptions to the rule, but as a rule of thumb, I think that if you can't present grounds for cancelling on a single side of A4, you're probably grabbing at straws in the first place.
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stamfordman
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 19:57
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adjust this for truthful details - do not lie but do not volunteer detail other than the basic facts in your favour. and don't make it longer!

Dear parking,

I wish to challenge PCN no. xxxxxx on the following grounds.

I and family members drove into xxxx road to view plane movements at the airport but before we found a place to park we found ourselves boxed in by a van [unmarked van??]. The van driver served us with what we now know is the PCN, which I enclose a picture of, but as you can see it is unreadable and I understand that without details it cannot be compliant and therefore must be cancelled.

I also challenge on the basis that your civil enforcement officer did not identify himself and did not appear to be wearing uniform. As he had boxed us in, we had no alternative but to call the police as we thought this was a con. The police attended and ascertained he is your employee but we found this experience intimidating and surely not compliant with protocol.

I look forward to your early cancellation of the PCN and an apology for the behaviour of your employee and trust you will ensure that this will addressed in your procedures.

yours

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 20:02
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