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BW LEGAL AGAIN!, Registered Keeper of the vehicle but not the driver.
DisadvantagedMot...
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 03:26
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Hi all,

Following is a brief introduction of facts,

MY wife and I lived in a residential complex last year, my car (which was registered to my wife) had access to underground parking garage whereas my wife's car (registered to me) had to be parked in the communal spaces which had pay and display machines @ £1.90 an hour, residents were issued parking booklets (8 hours per slip, 1 booklet a month, 20 slips in a booklet)

We moved out of the residence complex earlier this year and in May I received court summons from BW LEGAL (nightmare serial issuers) for a ticket from MAY 2018.

My wife and I were going through some troubles and not communicating at all for nearly 9/10 months and i was unaware of any tickets being issued, I did not receive any letters from Bw as I was working most of times and I believe my wife was hiding them from me.

Upon, receiving court summons, I browsed through the forums and followed the instructions on there, filing an SAR as well a restriction of data processing which was denied.

The SAR obtained results of nearly 24 parking tickets (none of which I was aware) in that period.

I panicked and although there is a lot of information on these forums, it gets rather confusing and with work pressures and time constrains, I wrote up a defense to the best of my ability, the particulars of which are
1. I am the registered keeper, however not the driver.
2. My wife was the driver and I was unaware of any tickets until court papers.
3. I agreed to the case being referred to POPLA and being bound by POPLA's decision.

I realise that I mightve made a mistake not researching more throughly as to what kind of a defence to file. I have now received court notification that this is now a defended claim and the case is being referred to a county court.

I cannot afford any legal help however, I really am in need of some advice on how to defend this claim.

The residential complex had a very complicated and rather terrible system of complex management, the parking attendants would put on tickets with no cause sometimes, the timings of most tickets put on is between 6 and 7 am.

My wife said she went into the office many times to complain about this however, she was spoken to rudely and turned away.

I believe many other residents have suffered similar issues and someone once made a police complaint regarding ticketing officer conduct.

There were many times that ticketing officers were physically and verbally abused by many people due to aggressive and unfair ticketing conduct.

Sometimes they would put on tickets even when there was a valid ticket slip displayed.

I am at a complete loss for how to defend this claim even though there are is so much unfair conduct on behalf of estate management and the parking management company (Napier Parking)

Any help or advise in the matter would be greatly appreciated.

DisadvantagedMotorist
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post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 03:26
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Jlc
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 07:48
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Napier are not in the BPA so POPLA wouldn't be available. The IAS (as an IPC member) would rule against you anyway.

You've snookered yourself a little with that defence. You first of all need to find out whether they have complied with the Protection of Freedoms Act - if they have then can pursue you even though your Wife was driving. (Although it seems your Wife is the 'keeper' of the vehicle?)

Secondly, the terms of any agreement/lease could be critical. But this hasn't been covered in your defence.

How many tickets is the claim for? All of the nearly 24?

This post has been edited by Jlc: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 07:51


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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DisadvantagedMot...
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 08:28
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Thank you for the prompt reply.

This particular claim is for one PCN dated May of 2018, but I’m worried that there might be others.

I’ve written to Bw legal informing them that my wife was sole driver of the car for that period and since then Napier parking have written to my wife demanding payment for tickets issued in Aug 2018 however there was no option to appeal which I thought to be curious.

I’ll do some research on protection of freedoms act.

I’ll also check the lease terms, anything particular I should look out for ?

Thanks in advance for the advice.
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Dave65
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 08:32
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Any term relating to parking rights and giving you exclusive use of a parking spot and mentioning nothing about having to display a permit.
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Jlc
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 08:50
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QUOTE (DisadvantagedMotorist @ Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 09:28) *
I’ll do some research on protection of freedoms act.

Here's a good summary.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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ostell
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 11:10
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Just to clarify: did you tell them your wife was the driver before or after you received the claim from Northampton?

If they know the driver before a claim is issued then the keeper cannot be held liable, POFA 5 (1) (b). So as you have not received another claim then there is a probability that you will not. If you do then your defence is that you have identified the driver and therefore no keeper liability

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DisadvantagedMot...
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 02:09
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QUOTE (ostell @ Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 11:10) *
Just to clarify: did you tell them your wife was the driver before or after you received the claim from Northampton?

If they know the driver before a claim is issued then the keeper cannot be held liable, POFA 5 (1) (b). So as you have not received another claim then there is a probability that you will not. If you do then your defence is that you have identified the driver and therefore no keeper liability



Unfortunately, after as I only became aware of the PCN upon receipt of summons from Northampton and the others after the obtaining the results of the SAR.

In April of 2018 (we moved into the property middle of march), I had received received a letter for a PCN (probably the first one in the series) but i had immediately replied informing them that my wife was the driver but after i never received anything, my wife admits to simply chucking away any letter from Napier or Bw.

This post has been edited by DisadvantagedMotorist: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 02:33
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DisadvantagedMot...
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 02:26
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QUOTE (Dave65 @ Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 08:32) *
Any term relating to parking rights and giving you exclusive use of a parking spot and mentioning nothing about having to display a permit.


I checked the lease, there is no mention of anything regarding parking rights or requirement to display a permit or any prohibition of use of communal parking space, except for this.

(please check picture)

im not quite sure what this means, the vehicle was a personal vehicle not a commercial one. (a hatchback car)

The entrance to the underground parking garage was by means of a key fob only, the lease mentions nothing about that either.


Also, am i able to change or modify my defence... I've received a Directions Questionnaire at this stage informing me that small claims track is suitable for this case?

Thanks again for the advice.
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 12:41
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Not commercial so not a problem. Also it would be breach of lease not breach of a contract so they could still nto do anything

However it DEFINITELY implies you should have rights to a communal space. SO, tell us what those rights are.
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DisadvantagedMot...
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 16:01
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 13:41) *
Not commercial so not a problem. Also it would be breach of lease not breach of a contract so they could still nto do anything

However it DEFINITELY implies you should have rights to a communal space. SO, tell us what those rights are.


The lease mentions absolutely nothing about rights to a communal space or any parking arrangement whatsoever, the only reference to "cars" and "communal space" are the clauses I uploaded on the earlier comment.



QUOTE (ostell @ Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 12:10) *
Just to clarify: did you tell them your wife was the driver before or after you received the claim from Northampton?

If they know the driver before a claim is issued then the keeper cannot be held liable, POFA 5 (1) (b). So as you have not received another claim then there is a probability that you will not. If you do then your defence is that you have identified the driver and therefore no keeper liability


Although I have informed BW legal that my wife was the sole user of the vehicle for the 8/9 month period and since then Napier even sent my wife letters demanding payments for tickets issued in Aug 2018

Today I received a letter of claim from BW legal for a ticket in Sept 2018....Im really confused about what I should do?

I would appreciate any advice, thanks in advance.
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ostell
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 17:12
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You remind them that you have previously identified the driver to them and therefore POFA 5 (1) (b) is no longer applicable and you therefore have no liability
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DisadvantagedMot...
post Sat, 20 Jul 2019 - 15:58
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Alright, Ill write to them.

thank you so much!
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DisadvantagedMot...
post Sun, 21 Jul 2019 - 02:17
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Is there anyone who has some advice on lease agreements? I have looked through the entire agreement but the only mentions for communal parking rights are the 2 clauses (photo in earlier post)

The rest of the lease has no mention of any parking rights or any requirement to pay and display, I even checked the notice at the parking ground and it mentions nothing specifically about residents.
I have a case at the Directions Questionnaire stage, What kind of defence would give me the best shot?
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ford poplar
post Sun, 21 Jul 2019 - 03:36
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Why is wife's car (she being sole driver) registered in your name?
Wife could have avoided PCN by displaying one of your purchased Permits at relevent time.
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DisadvantagedMot...
post Mon, 22 Jul 2019 - 03:55
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QUOTE (ford poplar @ Sun, 21 Jul 2019 - 04:36) *
Why is wife's car (she being sole driver) registered in your name?
Wife could have avoided PCN by displaying one of your purchased Permits at relevent time.


Well, the car was newer & automatic, my wife can only drive an automatic.
whereas hers was an older model & manual.
It wasnt a permanent arrangement, just until we sold off the manual & bought another automatic but then we had personal problems.

As for the relevant permit, there was one displayed but parking officers would give out tickets even then (the permit was like a scratch card, they would pick on the slightest thing, sometimes tickets were even given for no reason.)

Hence, many people had fights & verbal abuse directed at parking officers aggressive ticketing conduct (they were probably given targets I suppose)

My wife said she went into the estate management office several times to complain about this but was turned away with very rude behaviour.

This post has been edited by DisadvantagedMotorist: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 - 03:56
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DisadvantagedMot...
post Wed, 24 Jul 2019 - 03:16
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 13:41) *
Not commercial so not a problem. Also it would be breach of lease not breach of a contract so they could still nto do anything

However it DEFINITELY implies you should have rights to a communal space. SO, tell us what those rights are.


Ive looked over the lease several times but there is no mention of any rights to a communal space or any parking related clauses whatsoever.

LEASE Ive attached a copy for reference.

What does that indicate?

I need to defend my claim, I would be very grateful for any advice or assistance.

Thanks in advance

This post has been edited by DisadvantagedMotorist: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 - 03:48
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 24 Jul 2019 - 08:36
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Youve been getting advice - what have YOU done? How many threads have you read?

You cannot sit and wait in this thread.

I will not - and currently cannot - follow google drive links. Host the doc somewhere sensiblke like imgur, tinypic and post the link here.
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DisadvantagedMot...
post Wed, 24 Jul 2019 - 15:13
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Wed, 24 Jul 2019 - 08:36) *
Youve been getting advice - what have YOU done? How many threads have you read?

You cannot sit and wait in this thread.

I will not - and currently cannot - follow google drive links. Host the doc somewhere sensiblke like imgur, tinypic and post the link here.



I have been reading a lot of threads however I find the facts of my case to not be precisely matching any that I have read so far. (the fact that we are residents & having already idenfitied the driver)

I have also been looking into compliance with protection of Freedoms Act (which im finding a little complicated tbh)

I am concerned as I think Ive made a grave error with with the defence Ive already submitted, (ive phoned the courts and asked to change my defence for which i have to pay £100 fee, which i am happy to pay as long as I have a better more effective defence)

Ive also read that Napier dont actually have the authority to enter into any contract on behalf of the landowner unless they can provide proof of the contract with landowner, I havent asked for any such proof yet, do you reckon its too late to write to them at this stage to ask for it ? (ive also read that in most case they will refuse to provide)

Ive also identified the driver to them which i thought would be a solid defence which doesnt appear to be the case.

Ive got some vague points I can raise in a new defence but nothing concrete.

The lease terms being critical is the best shot ive got at a good defence but Im confused as to which clauses (of lack thereof) are relevant.

LeaseIve uploaded it to tinypic as your instructions.

Ive also included an attachment which shows the signs posted at the parking as well as the NTK I obtained from the SAR to napier

Any advice you can provide is greatly appreciated.

This post has been edited by DisadvantagedMotorist: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 - 15:23
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Redivi
post Wed, 24 Jul 2019 - 16:04
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When did you identify the driver - before or after the claim was issued ?

If it was before as you say in an earlier post, it's a solid defence
If it was after, it's no defence at all to the original PCN

It is, however, a defence to the additional costs

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DisadvantagedMot...
post Wed, 24 Jul 2019 - 16:31
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Wed, 24 Jul 2019 - 16:04) *
When did you identify the driver - before or after the claim was issued ?

If it was before as you say in an earlier post, it's a solid defence
If it was after, it's no defence at all to the original PCN

It is, however, a defence to the additional costs


Ive mentioned in earlier posts that i informed them after the claim was issued.

Any suggestions for a better defence to the PCN?

Thank you.
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