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Speeding and Failing to identify driver, Speeding and Failing to identify the driver
Next3762
post Fri, 29 May 2020 - 08:05
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Hello, I just wanted to ask some advise please.
My husband has received a letter with 2 charges on it - 1 is for speeding in a 50 zone ( he was doing 60 in a 50 ) and the 2nd is for failing to give information of who was driving.
We have read up on the seriousness of these charges and it looks like he will get 9 points and a fine - which he really can’t afford to get as he needs his car for work and is the main earner in our household. He has a clean licence at the moment but is concerned he may have got caught by another speed camera this week ( doing 75 on a motorway ) He has to respond with a plea in 21 days to both charges. It says that they sent 2 letters previously - 1 asking to name the driver of the speeding on 10-12-19 and then a reminder was sent. We vaguely remember receiving the 1st one must have stupidly forgotten about it ( around Christmas time which was hectic with work, family etc ) but we definitely never received a reminder in January like they have stated otherwise we would have replied straight away. We had forgotten all about it until we received these charges. My husband phoned a solicitor to ask for advice and they said that for £800 ( which we can’t really afford ) they can enter a plea bargain so that he doesn’t have to go to court or anything and they will just ask to only charge for the speeding. She did say though that if they refuse he will have to go to court and that will be another £500 plus I’m guessing any court fees and fines.
I did read on an old post here (2016) that advised to plead not guilty to both and then go to court and ask for a plea bargain of dropping the failing to Identify but pleading guilty to speeding. I just wondered what everyone’s thoughts were on this and what’s the best route to take??? If he puts not guilty on the form is that not lying and perverting the course of justice??? Are we better to go with a solicitor or save our money and him represent himself???
Thank you so much
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post Fri, 29 May 2020 - 08:05
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NewJudge
post Fri, 29 May 2020 - 08:26
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QUOTE (Next3762 @ Fri, 29 May 2020 - 09:05) *
I did read on an old post here (2016) that advised to plead not guilty to both and then go to court and ask for a plea bargain of dropping the failing to Identify but pleading guilty to speeding. I just wondered what everyone’s thoughts were on this and what’s the best route to take??? If he puts not guilty on the form is that not lying and perverting the course of justice??? Are we better to go with a solicitor or save our money and him represent himself???
Thank you so much

That's the way to do it. There is no possibility of him being convicted of speeding as they have no evidence he was driving. The only way to see a speeding conviction is to plead guilty (hence the advice not to do so). He should plead NG to both charges. He will then be advised of a court date when he must attend and offer to do the deal. Pleading Not Guilty to an offence is not perverting the course of justice. This process is seen in courts daily. Magistrates and prosecutors are well aware of it and it is almost always successful. There is no need for a solicitor.

This post has been edited by NewJudge: Fri, 29 May 2020 - 08:27
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The Rookie
post Fri, 29 May 2020 - 08:29
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Right now he can’t be convicted of speeding as they don’t know who was driving (or at least can’t prove it), so he would only ever face 6 points.

However the usual route is to plead NOT guilty to BOTH charges (presumably the ‘letter’ is a Single Justice Procedure Notice, it’s important to be concise), a court hearing will then be scheduled at which, before the actual hearing, he can arrange with the prosecutor to plead guilty to the speeding as long as the more onerous failing to furnish charge is dropped. No need for a solicitor at all, and frankly £800 is ridiculous, most would only charge circa £300 for this, so either they aren’t familiar with this process or are ripping you off!

If he wants to go this route then we can describe the process in more detail.

Pleading not guilty is in no way perverting the course of justice, that’s fanciful.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Fri, 29 May 2020 - 08:32


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Jlc
post Fri, 29 May 2020 - 08:38
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There's no legal requirement to send a reminder. If the first request was 'ignored' then it appears he is slam dunk guilty* of the s172 (failing to identify driver) charge. However, as noted above there is a way out of this but will require attendance at court.

Once the s172 charge is dropped (in exchange for a guilty plea to the speeding) then the court are unlikely to consider a fixed equivalent sentence. Although one could ask them to consider this, due to reasons unconnected with the offence itself, it is far more likely normal sentencing will ensue.

So, a fine around one third of relevant weekly earnings, costs of £85 and a surcharge of 10% of the fine (min. £32). Still 3 points though.


* but as noted above you have a right to plead not guilty to any alleged offence even if you know you're guilty of it! It's not PCoJ.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 29 May 2020 - 08:41


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Next3762
post Fri, 29 May 2020 - 09:47
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Thank you - I did think £800 sounded like a lot of money. It was one of the first ones for motoring offences in google that he called. When entering a not guilty plea online it asks for a reason - what should he state??? Thank you again
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Next3762
post Fri, 29 May 2020 - 10:53
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And sorry - yes it is a single justice notice
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Next3762
post Fri, 29 May 2020 - 13:57
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I would also like more information - like you mentioned above - about steps to take this route. Thank you
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NewJudge
post Fri, 29 May 2020 - 14:27
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Your husband should respond to the Single Justice Procedure Notice, pleading Not Guilty to both charges. He does not have to state a reason for his plea at this stage. He will then be given a hearing date to attend the normal Magistrates' Court. He should attend and ask to see the prosecutor for his case. He should then offer to plead guilty to speeding only on the condition that the "Fail to Provide Driver's Details" charge is dropped. In no circumstances should he plead guilty to speeding until that agreement is reached (that is a way to end up with nine points). He should then simply be sentenced for speeding as explained above.

If he is unable to see the prosecutor before he is called into court he should make his offer in court when asked to make his pleas. This is a common procedure with which all involved are familiar.

This post has been edited by NewJudge: Fri, 29 May 2020 - 14:28
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The Rookie
post Fri, 29 May 2020 - 18:12
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Bare in mind that the Police know they cannot get a conviction for the speeding, it’s only use is to facilitate the deal.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
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Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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Next3762
post Sun, 31 May 2020 - 10:42
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It also asks him to state reason for not guilty - should he just put not guilty in the box??? It asks also of you agree or disagree with the witness statements ( these are witness statements stating that the letters were posted by 1st class post ) I’m guessing he should say disagree with them as otherwise he would sound guilty??? Thank you
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southpaw82
post Sun, 31 May 2020 - 11:57
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If he says he disagrees with the witness statements then the witnesses will be called to court (when the trial is held) - why would he want to do that? You need to stop second guessing and simply listen to what you’re being told.


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Next3762
post Sun, 31 May 2020 - 12:25
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But if he agrees with the witnesses then how can he plead not guilty????
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NewJudge
post Sun, 31 May 2020 - 12:48
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QUOTE (Next3762 @ Sun, 31 May 2020 - 13:25) *
But if he agrees with the witnesses then how can he plead not guilty????

If there was a trial concerning the "Fail to Supply Driver's details" he could not realistically disagree with a witness who says a letter was posted. He wasn't there so could not say one way or the other. But there would be a lot more to a trial for that matter than simply evidence that a letter was posted and accepting that it was does not make him guilty. You don't need to worry about it because, if all goes according to plan there will not be such a trial.
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Next3762
post Sun, 31 May 2020 - 13:53
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Ah ok. So just put not guilty and in reason also state not guilty - and then agree with witnesses ( 1 sending letters and 1 using speed device ) and then when at court ask for a plea on guilty of speeding on condition they drop the failing to disclose driver???
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southpaw82
post Sun, 31 May 2020 - 14:51
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QUOTE (Next3762 @ Sun, 31 May 2020 - 13:25) *
But if he agrees with the witnesses then how can he plead not guilty????

Because he can. That’s the law. You’ll just have to take it on faith.


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Logician
post Sun, 31 May 2020 - 19:39
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He should simply ignore the request for the reason for the not guilty plea, there is no compulsion to provide that.

He should attend court on the date set. As there is no evidence as to who was driving your car, since he has not told them, there can be no conviction for the speeding unless he pleads guilty. Get to court early and ask one of the ushers (people scurrying about with clipboards and possibly gowns getting things organised) to point out to you the prosecutor who will be dealing with traffic matters. Say to him/her that you will plead guilty to the speeding if they will drop the s.172. We have never heard of prosecutors refusing to do this, they prefer to get a conviction for the underlying offence, and regard the two offences as effectively alternative offences. If you do not manage to speak to the prosecutor beforehand, you should still be able to do the deal in the courtroom. It is very difficult to do this in advance of the court hearing as you would have trouble speaking to the right person.


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2020Blue
post Sun, 31 May 2020 - 23:28
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Don't they use the photograph to identify the driver if it comes to it?

Otherwise, what's stopping anyone saying I loaned the car to my mate Pedro who was visiting me from Spain?
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Logician
post Mon, 1 Jun 2020 - 00:50
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QUOTE (2020Blue @ Sun, 31 May 2020 - 23:28) *
Don't they use the photograph to identify the driver if it comes to it? Otherwise, what's stopping anyone saying I loaned the car to my mate Pedro who was visiting me from Spain?


The majority of photographs are of the rear of the vehicle and even frontal shots are rarely good enough to identify the driver, their purpose being to identify the vehicle. Faced with the nomination of an overseas resident driver, police have a number of approaches, one usual one being to enquire about the insurance situation, permitting someone to drive without insurance carries the same penalties as driving with no insurance. If the overseas driver turns out to be a fiction, this can lead to a charge of attempting to pervert the course of justice, as in THIS CASE where the offenders were lucky to get off with a fine, as a custodial sentence often results.



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NewJudge
post Mon, 1 Jun 2020 - 15:25
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You do seem to be unnecessarily worrying and introducing all sorts of scenarios which will not materialise. If your husband simply follows the advice given here all should be fine. The very worst that can happen is that his offer to plead guilty to speeding if the FtF charge is dropped will not be accepted. Then he will have to decide whether to defend the FtF charge (and from what you say he has no realistic defence) or to plead guilty to it. In that case the speeding charge will be a dead duck. They have no evidence that he was the driver. However I think there has been only one case on here where such an offer was refused and that was when the driver concerned was somewhat less than polite towards the prosecutor.
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The Rookie
post Mon, 1 Jun 2020 - 17:51
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This is a very well trodden path, we’ve not just dreamed it up for you. As noted above we’ve only ever heard of one driver having the offer refused, and he told the prosecutor that they would never have got a guilty verdict for the failing to furnish charge (in colourful manner), the prosecutor set out to disavow him of that notion.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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