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PCN for Red Route
salam
post Wed, 5 Feb 2020 - 15:14
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Hi All,

I got a PCN for stopping in a red route at the wrong time, however, from my recollection I only got out of the vehicle to check the signage and then left. The photos on the PCN are only 2 minutes apart so I contested it via email. A month or so later they sent a letter with a DVD stating "enclosed is the footage I requested". I dont have a DVD/CD player so never got a chance to look at it. Instead I waited to get an email or letter to say my appeal was either accepted or rejected. Instead I just got another charge on the PCN saying I never responded so now it is £195.

Was I wrong is assuming they should either accept or reject the PCN?

Can I do anything now or is it too late?

Regards
Seenan
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 16 Apr 2020 - 14:39
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QUOTE (DJ Lexy @ Thu, 16 Apr 2020 - 14:55) *
QUOTE (salam @ Thu, 16 Apr 2020 - 14:15) *
Although no one has managed to tell me if 2min and 11sec is enough to warrant a PCN??

In a 'no stopping' area, it almost certainly would be. The signs in these areas are usually angled so you can read them before you pull into the bay.

There's not much point in paying right now, because the amount can't go up again until an adjudicator has looked at your case, rejected it, given you a couple of weeks to pay, and then another charge certificate is issued.



????????? why wait for a new charge cert, if the adjudicator orders payment then the PCN amount would be due and the OP would have 28 days to pay that .

OP create a onedrive or google drive folder and post all the TFL s evidence. In particular the PCN's and I need the PCN numbers and dates


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hcandersen
post Thu, 16 Apr 2020 - 14:47
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So if they sent me footage to review and I never made a further appeal dont they have an obligation to write and tell me that original appeal is rejected, here is the PCN original amount you have 30days to pay it etc?


No, they do not. The burden lies with you.

Anyway, when you've posted the NOR and/or your online 'reps' we'll see what's what.

The fact you've even put the question above implies that you know that all you did was ask for the video. Anyway, why speculate?

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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 16 Apr 2020 - 15:50
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points of interest to me at least

Para 4 of the first page of the summery

para 2 0f page 2 witness statement
and section (b) of the last page of WS.

The OP may know what they have done but TFL haven't got a clue



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stamfordman
post Thu, 16 Apr 2020 - 16:01
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Danger of overdoing this - it looks simple to me. Obviously it was a hire car and PCN was resissued to OP.

- There is only one PCN.
- OP filed something that included a request for video
- TFL sent video and put it on hold awaiting reps
- No reps sent but witness statement made
- TEC accepts and TFL sends pack to tribunal

Maybe I've got it wrong.

Now there may be some good appeal points to be made given the paperwork. I didn't realise TFL doesn't use the tribunal system - that's rather daft but TFL is a dinosaur in systems. As for reinstating discount, I am aware that it is a direction, but I would expect it to be made if indicated.



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hcandersen
post Thu, 16 Apr 2020 - 16:26
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Why are we being left to guess/infer/deduce/interpret tea leaves over a point which the OP is perfectly able to resolve?

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salam
post Fri, 17 Apr 2020 - 08:40
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Thu, 16 Apr 2020 - 14:46) *
- I made an appeal through their portal and all they had to do was say appeal rejected.

So you keep telling us. And when you were advised, months ago, to get a copy of what you sent, you sat on your hands and passed the initiative to TfL.

As a general comment, if what you posted is TfL's summary then the poor adjudicator to whom this gets passed will probably slit their wrists rather than be faced with the full version!

Their summary doesn't hang together. For example, they use the expression 'under separate cover' which to me means:

used in a letter for saying that something will be sent separately. The information you requested is being sent under separate cover.

Which by clear inference MUST mean that they also replied to your 'reps'.

This is not rocket science:
They either accepted your online 'reps' as formal representations or they did not;
If they did, then a Notoce of Rejection would have been sent to you and INCLUDED within the pack. Look for it.
If they did not, then your online 'reps' will be in the pack. Look for it.

Either way, LOOK.

@stamfordman, I would expect the adjudicator to at least reinstate the discount...

Not possible, the adj doesn't have the power. They could make a recommendation to the authority, but ultimately the decision lies with them, not the adj.


I honestly don't believe I sat on my hands - I emailed several times and called to try and get a copy of what I wrote, it honestly felt like TFL make it purposefully difficult to retrieve my appeal. Their timeline for sending the PCN is also a bit ridiculous as how I am meant to remember exactly what I did 2 months ago on the specified night.

I have looked through the pack and there is no rejection letter. I honestly believed that my online appeal was an appeal - the ticket history (posted above) has my appeal in it and this is the first time I am reading it since 24/12/2019: "Due to the rain I was unable to see the signage whilst still in my vehicle. So I got out to check the sign. The photos show I was in the bay from 17:44:04 to 17:45:11 which is only 1 min and 7 sec. From what I recall I moved away from this space. Could you provide evidence that I was in the space for longer than 1 minute and 7 sec? I have 2 small children both under 3 years old and I feel stopping in a space for just over a minute to check the signage after ensuring the children are tended to before exiting the vehicle is reasonable.".

So YES i did request the video but with reasoning and an appeal I thought. But if worst case scenario all of the rest of my above paragraph was ignored and the just read the words "provide evidence" - the original offence occurred on 09/11/2019, I got the PCN on 10/12/2019, I made the appeal on 24/12/2019. The DVD was sent with nothing else but letterheaded paper saying footage requested 27/12/2019. So at that point should I just assume that my discounted rate PCN period has elapsed or the time period restarts or what? Especially it being around the Christmas and New Years period why is too much to ask for a letter with it stating "footage requested shows the contrary - your PCN stands, please pay discounted rate by xx or it has elapsed so pay xx" instead I just have to guess and I get a CC. Who even has a DVD player nowadays? If it was 2min 11sec worth of footage why couldn't this be emailed to me?


QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 16 Apr 2020 - 17:01) *
Danger of overdoing this - it looks simple to me. Obviously it was a hire car and PCN was resissued to OP.

- There is only one PCN.
- OP filed something that included a request for video
- TFL sent video and put it on hold awaiting reps
- No reps sent but witness statement made
- TEC accepts and TFL sends pack to tribunal

Maybe I've got it wrong.

Now there may be some good appeal points to be made given the paperwork. I didn't realise TFL doesn't use the tribunal system - that's rather daft but TFL is a dinosaur in systems. As for reinstating discount, I am aware that it is a direction, but I would expect it to be made if indicated.


not a hire car - lease car.

But everything else seems correct - should I wait or make an appeal or is it currently being assessed by London Tribunal adjudicator already?
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 17 Apr 2020 - 08:43
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OP create a onedrive or google drive folder and post all the TFL s evidence. In particular the PCN's and I need the PCN numbers and dates

we need to see the appeal pack


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hcandersen
post Fri, 17 Apr 2020 - 08:58
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At last we have the OP's version of what they submitted which should be considered as reps IMO.
(this situation is analogous to contract disputes between companies and Joe Public where the law places a greater burden on companies as regards clarity in their terms and procedures than it does on the public: they're presumed to be the professionals and should know the law and present issues clearly whereas we're amateurs and are allowed far more leeway. So it is here: if there is anything in a submission - including the wrapper within which it was submitted - to suggest that they are reps, then they must be considered as such)

But, OP, where is this in TfL's pack.

Read it thoroughly. Is it there?

If not, tell us - also post the docs as per PMB - because you can do this after only a few minutes' effort.

'- I emailed several times and called to try and get a copy of what I wrote,'.

Where are these? Try..I emailed TfL on **, **, ***.......and here's an example of what was sent.......

I did/did not receive a reply......
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 17 Apr 2020 - 09:30
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 17 Apr 2020 - 09:58) *
At last we have the OP's version of what they submitted which should be considered as reps IMO.
(this situation is analogous to contract disputes between companies and Joe Public where the law places a greater burden on companies as regards clarity in their terms and procedures than it does on the public: they're presumed to be the professionals and should know the law and present issues clearly whereas we're amateurs and are allowed far more leeway. So it is here: if there is anything in a submission - including the wrapper within which it was submitted - to suggest that they are reps, then they must be considered as such)

But, OP, where is this in TfL's pack.

Read it thoroughly. Is it there?

If not, tell us - also post the docs as per PMB - because you can do this after only a few minutes' effort.

'- I emailed several times and called to try and get a copy of what I wrote,'.

Where are these? Try..I emailed TfL on **, **, ***.......and here's an example of what was sent.......

I did/did not receive a reply......


Agreed, so what should happen now is that the adjudicator should list the case for an appeal at which point you may submit further evidence. If there is no notice of rejection in te appeal bundle sent by TfL to the tribunal you will win on that alone but keep that powder dry for now


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salam
post Sun, 19 Apr 2020 - 10:07
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Ok I haven't shared stuff from my Google drive before but here goes, I had to split the pack into 4 parts and upload them separately. Below are the links for the 4 pdfs, they are in order and the whole pack will be in there.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bFW2lyF-Uu...ew?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bTp8uZBzin...ew?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bNNon7-YWc...ew?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bUw0G7TQoj...ew?usp=drivesdk
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 19 Apr 2020 - 11:03
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While we are waiting for the tribunal to contact you post the PCN you recieved addressed to the company secretary and the last letter you recieved leave in dates times and numbers

Play this properly and you should not lose, but TfL must be allowed to hang themselves further so do nothing without checking with us first


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cp8759
post Mon, 20 Apr 2020 - 18:38
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 19 Apr 2020 - 12:03) *
do nothing without checking with us first

This. You're in good hands with PMB but do not do anything without checkinig here first.


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salam
post Sun, 26 Apr 2020 - 11:58
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Hi,

I received the following from London Tribunals:




Everything that was sent from TFL is included in the pack, the only other correspondence has been emails I have sent:

Email for Witness Statment:

Seenan Alam <seenan.alam@gmail.com>
Attachments
Thu, 12 Mar, 08:44
to tec

Hi,



I have attached a witness statement with regards to PCN – .



The alleged contravention took place on 09/11/2019, timeline thereafter:



24/11/2019 – I submitted a representation online – citing that the photos shown are only a minute apart - due to the heavy rain on that evening I stopped in the parking spot as I was unable to read the parking sign, I exited the vehicle checked the sign and then vacated the spot. This was an appeal – as stated in my email representation



05/12/2019 – Representation accepted



27/12/2019 – DTES Footage request – I received a DVD in the mail which I could not open as I do not have a DVD player



I awaited a notice of rejection of my appeal but never got it – instead just got a charge certificate, I emailed twice to the tfl enforcement address but never received a response.



I hope this issue can be resolved.



Regards

Seenan Alam


Email to TFL requesting my appeal which they never replied to:[b]

Seenan Alam <seenan.alam@gmail.com>
Attachments
Fri, 14 Feb, 08:35
to Customer

Hi,

I am trying to obtain a copy of the appeal I made by email to the PCN GT81974329. I have been sent a charge certificate after making the appeal without a notice of rejection of the appeal.

Could you please look into this for me as a matter of urgency?

Thanks
Seenan Alam


Email to TFL informing them that i never received a rejection to my appeal:

Seenan Alam <seenan.alam@gmail.com>
Tue, 11 Feb, 17:44
to NoReply

Hi,

I never received a response from my PCN appeal.

Regards
Seenan
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 26 Apr 2020 - 12:12
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Your representation is printed by TfL in the case history highlight that and send it to the tribunal with this note


I did not keep a copy of my representations that I submitted online, I asked TfL for a copy but recieved no response. However thy can be found embedded within the TfL case history page 1 of 5 entry dated 24/12/2019

The add a copy of the full case history


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salam
post Wed, 12 Aug 2020 - 11:18
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Hi All,

I got a reply from London Tribunals below, not really much help and a bit disappointed that they didn't address the fact that I made a representation online and TFL never officially rejected it. You guys have any thoughts?



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hcandersen
post Wed, 12 Aug 2020 - 12:31
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OP, you've missed the opportunity to apply for a review, and if you don't pay the PCN within the 28-day period then you'll be surcharged.

But just for me, where is their Notice of Rejection of Representations, NOR?

That's all I want to see.
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salam
post Tue, 18 Aug 2020 - 15:33
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 12 Aug 2020 - 13:31) *
OP, you've missed the opportunity to apply for a review, and if you don't pay the PCN within the 28-day period then you'll be surcharged.

But just for me, where is their Notice of Rejection of Representations, NOR?

That's all I want to see.



It never came - not part of the pack or ever emailed to me etc. I emailed London Tribunals highlighting this to me but they have just used an auto-responses to say that the case is closed. Looks like £130 is the price I will have to pay. I still think this is unfair - if they would have rejected it in the first place I would have paid the discounted rate straight away.
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 18 Aug 2020 - 16:28
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Shame its to late, IMO from what i can see the tribunal have acted improperly. They should have set this down for a hearing. The OP must be given a chance to take part and rather than deciding on the representations of the Op to TFL and TFL's to the tribunal the OP should have been able to present the procedural matters


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Neil B
post Tue, 18 Aug 2020 - 17:44
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That's poor from Burke.

He might like to play hardball but there's no excuse for missing an obvious appeal point.

Assuming it was put to him that is?

I'm wondering if it's still worth trying for a review, in the interests of justice.
Is there ever any leeway on the deadline for review?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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cp8759
post Tue, 18 Aug 2020 - 22:16
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 18 Aug 2020 - 18:44) *
Is there ever any leeway on the deadline for review?

There can be:

Miscellaneous powers of adjudicators
15.
—(1) An adjudicator may, if he thinks fit—

(a) extend the time appointed by or under this Schedule for the doing of any act notwithstanding that the time appointed has expired;


If there is no evidence that a NoR was ever issued, IMO it would be in the interests of justice to extend the deadline and allow the appeal, however you would need to include an application for an extension of time with the application for a review. Whether it would be granted is another matter, when did you get the letter from London Tribunals?

This post has been edited by cp8759: Tue, 18 Aug 2020 - 22:17


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