DM but interesting., And worrying if true! |
DM but interesting., And worrying if true! |
Thu, 2 Aug 2018 - 20:30
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,280 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-60...s-work-van.html
Apart from the stupidity --- the power to stop traffic ? -------------------- |
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Thu, 2 Aug 2018 - 20:30
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Sat, 4 Aug 2018 - 13:52
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#21
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,898 Joined: 15 Dec 2007 From: South of John O'Groats, north of Cape Town. Member No.: 16,066 |
Get your scenario right:
Are we before or after the blind corner? Is the 'flagger' facing us or are we smashing 'into the back of someone?' It's impossible to have a decent argument with some people! This post has been edited by cabbyman: Sat, 4 Aug 2018 - 13:52 -------------------- Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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Sat, 4 Aug 2018 - 13:53
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#22
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Of course it is if you round the corner and smash into the back of someone. "Yes officer I saw someone at the side of the road trying to flag me down but I had no obligation to stop so I continued at 60mph into the back of the pile up." "Quite alright sir, they didn't have any legal power to stop you, and I can see how careful and competent you were being." Surely as a careful and competent driver you would always have enough clear space in front of you to stop safely, so regardless of whether someone is trying to flag you down you wouldn't run into the back of a pile up. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sat, 4 Aug 2018 - 14:36
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#23
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,306 Joined: 4 Mar 2017 Member No.: 90,659 |
Indeed but careless driving has a spectrum of carelessness, you can be more careless if magistrates saw failure to slow when flagged down meant you were travelling an even more excessive speed then would otherwise be the case.
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Sat, 4 Aug 2018 - 16:25
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#24
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,140 Joined: 19 Jun 2004 From: Surrey Member No.: 1,326 |
A Waltham Forest Council spokesman said: 'The waste in this case was being transported in commercial refuse bag in the trader’s vehicle. 'Regardless of what the items are, if waste is being stored in a commercial refuse bag in a trader’s van it is necessary that they have a valid waste carriers’ license (sic). DM and John Humphries seem to be missing the point. Presumably if the bag had Smith and Wesson logos on it, he would have needed a firearms licence Council do seem to be saying there was more then a few crisp packets but if they are intent on progressing to court if he does not pay the FPN, they'll need more then that. How about a few bent nails, a bit of roofing felt and a broken tile It's ridiculous, if he is carrying waste, do him but every time a council stretches the point, they end up looking ridiculous. I don't know how commercial waste bags and transportation operate, but there may have been some past interaction between the Council and the man regarding waste. I highly doubt the whole story is being told here and that he is genuinely being asked to pay £300 for having his own waste in his van. If he is it is shocking, but I'm cynical about the story. |
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Sat, 4 Aug 2018 - 16:27
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#25
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,634 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
Indeed but careless driving has a spectrum of carelessness, you can be more careless if magistrates saw failure to slow when flagged down meant you were travelling an even more excessive speed then would otherwise be the case. Your proposition appeared to be that failing to stop for anyone was careless driving. That isn’t true. If your actual position was that failing to stop for someone trying to warn you of a hazard is also careless driving then that isn’t necessarily the case and your proposition wasn’t clear. The presence of the person trying to flag you down may be a factor that would make your driving careless depending on what else happened but of itself can’t be careless. -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Sat, 4 Aug 2018 - 16:27
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#26
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 2 Joined: 3 Aug 2018 Member No.: 99,221 |
Heard what the victim (the roofer, Stewart Gosling) had to say himself.
He was flagged down by a uniformed constable, one of several operating there, and told he had to submit to an inspection by the council goons. He wasn't doing anything suspicious, this was a "random" commercial vehicle stop Since he knew he was doing nothing wrong, it didn't occur to him to challenge or not whether they had the power to search his van. Big mistake in Waltham Forest. Hundreds of Walthamstow jihadis to be trained by the council (think Jihadi John, Al-Britani, Anjem Choudary etc) so money is always short. Gosling had a sack in his van as that's his dustbin for crisp packets and so on. No commercial waste. Forensically, the sack would have shown no evidence of ever having contained anything but empty crisp, choc packets, sweets wrappers, sandwich containers and similar. Whatever the Daily Fail says, he's not paid the £300 and wants to know what he should do. Could people here help? On the face of it, it is outrageous. But I've heard LBWF do far more outrageous things, and some of them are on youtube. |
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Sat, 4 Aug 2018 - 16:29
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#27
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,634 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
Hundreds of Walthamstow jihadis to be trained by the council (think Jihadi John, Al-Britani, Anjem Choudary etc) so money is always short. Que? QUOTE Could people here help? Up to him if he wants to post here. -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Sat, 4 Aug 2018 - 17:56
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#28
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
SP posted the relevant legislation in Post 2.
From that, FPN can only be if the waste found is "controlled" Exactly what controlled means is mired in amendments but looking at The Controlled Waste (England and Wales) Regulations 2012 I cannot see how even a largish bag of crisp packets etc can be controlled unless they are somehow construing it as Household Waste from a place of work. Though the latter doesn't seem to be defined as a general category unlike many specific institutions. If the bag was larger then 750mm diameter and 1000mm height and the rubbish did not fit in or the rubbish weighed more then 25kg, could be household waste that is regarded as controlled. To me the bottom line is if the bloke believes that his lunch wrappings do not fall into "controlled waste" definitions, then do nothing and see if the council have the bottle and evidence to take him to court. The latter would be expensive if he was found to be carrying controlled waste |
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Sat, 4 Aug 2018 - 20:01
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#29
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,306 Joined: 4 Mar 2017 Member No.: 90,659 |
If he wants advice all he needs is S26, which says that if he produced the waste himself and it isn't construction or demolition waste, then he is exempt.
If it is true and all there was in the bag was crisp packets then obviously he is covered, although it would seem a fairly inconvenient way to keep rubbish. If it was being "used as a dustbin" and trade waste was in there as well then no such protection applies. "Controlled waste" is a red herring, from memory the definition is household + commercial + industrial. Basically, all waste is controlled. |
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Sat, 4 Aug 2018 - 20:46
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#30
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Heard what the victim (the roofer, Stewart Gosling) had to say himself. He was flagged down by a uniformed constable, one of several operating there, and told he had to submit to an inspection by the council goons. Well that's interesting, do police officers have a power to stop vehicles in these circumstances? -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sat, 4 Aug 2018 - 20:55
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#31
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,634 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
Heard what the victim (the roofer, Stewart Gosling) had to say himself. He was flagged down by a uniformed constable, one of several operating there, and told he had to submit to an inspection by the council goons. Well that's interesting, do police officers have a power to stop vehicles in these circumstances? AFAIK the power to stop vehicles under s 163 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 is unqualified (subject to public law considerations). Once the vehicle is stopped the “council goon” can do his thing. I’ve done it myself for Customs tank dipping operations. -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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Sat, 4 Aug 2018 - 21:35
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#32
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
Heard what the victim (the roofer, Stewart Gosling) had to say himself. He was flagged down by a uniformed constable, one of several operating there, and told he had to submit to an inspection by the council goons. Well that's interesting, do police officers have a power to stop vehicles in these circumstances? From Control of Pollution (Amendment) Act 1989, Section 5 (wot SP posted earlier) QUOTE If it reasonably appears to any duly authorised officer of a [F2disposal authority][F2regulation authority] or to a constable that any controlled waste is being or has been transported in contravention of section 1(1) above, he may— (a)stop any person appearing to him to be or to have been engaged in transporting that waste and require that person to produce his authority or, as the case may be, his employer’s authority for transporting that waste; and (b)search any vehicle that appears to him to be a vehicle which is being or has been used for transporting that waste, carry out tests on anything found in any such vehicle and take away for testing samples of anything so found. |
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Sat, 4 Aug 2018 - 22:25
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#33
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
From Control of Pollution (Amendment) Act 1989, Section 5 (wot SP posted earlier) QUOTE If it reasonably appears to any duly authorised officer of a [F2disposal authority][F2regulation authority] or to a constable that any controlled waste is being or has been transported in contravention of section 1(1) above, he may— (a)stop any person appearing to him to be or to have been engaged in transporting that waste and require that person to produce his authority or, as the case may be, his employer’s authority for transporting that waste; and (b)search any vehicle that appears to him to be a vehicle which is being or has been used for transporting that waste, carry out tests on anything found in any such vehicle and take away for testing samples of anything so found. I doubt seeing a van drive down the road is, on its own, enough for anyone to say that it reasonably appears that controlled waste is or has been transported. I suspect SP is correct and they just used the RTA. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sat, 4 Aug 2018 - 22:49
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#34
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
......….I doubt seeing a van drive down the road is, on its own, enough for anyone to say that it reasonably appears that controlled waste is or has been transported. I suspect SP is correct and they just used the RTA. Not arguing on what could be used, just pointing out one avenue that could apply if circumstances were right, pulling every van leaving a building site for instance on suspicion that they could be loaded with waste. Or any van approaching a local disposal point. |
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Sat, 4 Aug 2018 - 23:03
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#35
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Member Group: Members Posts: 294 Joined: 8 Oct 2007 Member No.: 14,341 |
I'm sure with a little imagination you could enviage passing someone flagging you down before a blind corner or brow of a hill, beyond which is the hazard. Yes, been there done it myself; happened upon an incident round a blind bend, so I positioned myself suitably safely sufficiently far ahead of the bend in a yellow waitcoat. Motioned cars to slow down, not stop, and waved them through slowly, knowing 3 friends were round the corner marshalling traffic; one a serving fireman, the other two experienced motor-sport marshals. Everyone took heed, acknowledged me, and behaved sensibly with one exception; non-traffic police car, who promptly turned on his blue lights, accelerated round blind bend, on wrong side of double whites, overtaking previous vehicle and nearly had a head-on with someone coming the other way/ Ho Hum. |
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Sat, 4 Aug 2018 - 23:59
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#36
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I'm sure with a little imagination you could enviage passing someone flagging you down before a blind corner or brow of a hill, beyond which is the hazard. Yes, been there done it myself; happened upon an incident round a blind bend, so I positioned myself suitably safely sufficiently far ahead of the bend in a yellow waitcoat. Motioned cars to slow down, not stop, and waved them through slowly, knowing 3 friends were round the corner marshalling traffic; one a serving fireman, the other two experienced motor-sport marshals. Everyone took heed, acknowledged me, and behaved sensibly with one exception; non-traffic police car, who promptly turned on his blue lights, accelerated round blind bend, on wrong side of double whites, overtaking previous vehicle and nearly had a head-on with someone coming the other way/ Ho Hum. I hope you reported him. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 5 Aug 2018 - 00:56
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#37
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Member Group: Members Posts: 294 Joined: 8 Oct 2007 Member No.: 14,341 |
I hope you reported him. With what evidence, me against a couple of coppers on their way to an urgent incident. Also mindful of a friend, albeit many years previously, who went to the local Police station to see about making a formal complaint via the desk officer. Do you have your driving licence sir? Why, it's not motoring related? Ah, it's just that if you continue with this, you might not have it for long !! I do accept that times have hopefully changed for the better. |
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Sun, 5 Aug 2018 - 12:07
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#38
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I hope you reported him. With what evidence, me against a couple of coppers on their way to an urgent incident. Also mindful of a friend, albeit many years previously, who went to the local Police station to see about making a formal complaint via the desk officer. Do you have your driving licence sir? Why, it's not motoring related? Ah, it's just that if you continue with this, you might not have it for long !! I do accept that times have hopefully changed for the better. Well I appreciate it might have been difficult but if you'd got witness statements from you, the other people marshalling the scene, and the chap who almost had the head-on with the police car, sent it all directly to PSD, something would happen about it. As for your front desk encounter, in this day and age if you were to record that on your mobile (no law against covertly recording at a police station front desk), the person in question might not be in public facing duties for long! -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 5 Aug 2018 - 13:46
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#39
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Member Group: Members Posts: 3,306 Joined: 4 Mar 2017 Member No.: 90,659 |
As for your front desk encounter, in this day and age if you were to record that on your mobile (no law against covertly recording at a police station front desk), the person in question might not be in public facing duties for long! I've been involved with a few joint investigations with PSD for things like alleged sexual assault in A&E. PSD officers never strike me as having much desire to rock the boat ior scratch the surface. I've always assumed it's like the police equivalent of Dermatology: a department where everyone feckless and annoying gets shunted to because they can't do too much damage. |
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Sun, 5 Aug 2018 - 16:56
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#40
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Member Group: Members Posts: 33,634 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
PSD officers never strike me as having much desire to rock the boat ior scratch the surface. You appear to have met different PSD officers to me! -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
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