No seatbelt fine & insurance question. Options

[Melchett]

Hi guys, I've recently been fined for not wearing a seatbelt (don't ask)

As my insurance is due for renewal I declared it & my premium increased a little but then I got to wondering...

As there are no penalty points for this offence would the insurance co find out if I'd said nothing?

Cheers.

[Advertisement]

[StuartBu]

What do the policy conditions say about declaring such things. You don't want to be in a situation where you didn't tell them when you should have and it causes problems in the event of a claim....
Also it is not a FINE.

[The Rookie]

It could be a fine if it went to court?

The insurance company may not find out, but if they did it could make life very difficult, worse still now they know if you didn’t still declare it it could get stickier still.

Is the small increase you are paying worth saving for the potential aggravation?

[StuartBu]

It could be a fine if it went to court?

Yeah Yeah of course it could but in the absence of any mention of " Court" I took it to be a FP.

[notmeatloaf]

Simple answer is they are unlikely to find out - except you've presumably now done a quote in your name with the conviction on. It wouldn't be amazingly hard for fraud software to flag that up.

If they then cancel your insurance you will need to declare it on future policies in theory for life. That could add up to a lot.

[StuartBu]

Simple answer is they are unlikely to find out - except you've presumably now done a quote in your name with the conviction on. It wouldn't be amazingly hard for fraud software to flag that up.

If they then cancel your insurance you will need to declare it on future policies in theory for life. That could add up to a lot.

They way I read the OP was that he HAD declared it hence the premium increase and not , as you suggest, just got a new quote

[Melchett]

They way I read the OP was that he HAD declared it hence the premium increase and not , as you suggest, just got a new quote

Correct, I've already declared it &, as the revised premium is still ok, I will be staying with them.

All I wanted to know was if I hadn't said anything how could they have found out? Is it recorded somewhere insurance co's have access too?

[DancingDad]

They way I read the OP was that he HAD declared it hence the premium increase and not , as you suggest, just got a new quote

Correct, I've already declared it &, as the revised premium is still ok, I will be staying with them.

All I wanted to know was if I hadn't said anything how could they have found out? Is it recorded somewhere insurance co's have access too?

Dunno. Many are asking for driving licence number now when quoting but whether offence records are accessible to them ?
Trouble is that you have to assume they can access or will find out another way, not doing so could bring all sorts of nasties.
I'd rather not have to tick the box that asks if you have ever had insurance cancelled for want of ticking one about convictions or accidents.

[southpaw82]

All I wanted to know was if I hadn't said anything how could they have found out? Is it recorded somewhere insurance co's have access too?

I take it you’re making a purely hypothetical question, as not declaring it if asked would be fraud - so it has to be declared whether you’d be found out or not.

[nigelbb]

I just got a quote from LV= (Liverpool Victoria as was) & was asked about accidents but nothing at all about convictions. They just asked for my driving licence number so presumably could details about endorsements but certainly not anything except convictions e.g. SAC or FPN.

This post has been edited by nigelbb: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 - 20:20

[Melchett]

I take it you’re making a purely hypothetical question, as not declaring it if asked would be fraud - so it has to be declared whether you’d be found out or not.

That kind of sums it up, if I hadn't declared it & it not being an endorseable offence can they find out, is there a record on my licence they can check?

It's too late now to really matter as I have declared it & it made a few quid difference... I was just wondering!

[Melchett]

Ok then, I was expecting a COFP & £100 (no points) which I would have accepted as I was guilty, that's why I informed my insurance co.

I haven't had a COFP, today I've received a SJPN pack for not wearing a seatbelt.

I've checked the NIP copy they sent & I gave my licence number, signed & dated it but (genuine mistake) didn't enter my DOB, is this why they've skipped the COFP?
If so I think it's a bit harsh given that they have all they need from my driving licence & the SJPN has my DOB at the top of the pages.

[notmeatloaf]

Technically under S75 of the RTOA 1988 if you pay a non-endorsable fixed penalty within 28 days then they must not bring any proceedings against you. It seems if you have provided your driving licence then they have all the details they could possibly need.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/5...ales/1995-02-03

If you are sure you have complied - especially that you paid as instructed - then it would be worth emailing, or finding out the email address, of the police officer in charge of the camera unit. Point out you have complied with your obligations under S75/S76 and you believe proceedings are being mistakenly brought.

If it goes to court then you can ask them to sentence at fixed penalty rates or for the case to be dismissed on the basis the police have initiated proceedings when they are prohibited from doing so. But worth trying the less hassle version first.

This post has been edited by notmeatloaf: Wed, 1 Aug 2018 - 17:13

[Melchett]

I haven't paid because I haven't had an offer of a fixed penalty, all I've had is a NIP which I filled in (minus my DOB) & posted back on 16 july.

This is the first thing I've received since. They've skipped the fixed penalty offer!

This post has been edited by Melchett: Wed, 1 Aug 2018 - 17:55

[notmeatloaf]

Is the only charge the seatbelt, not failing to identify the driver (S172)? Did you include any letter or additional information.

If there is only seatbelt you would have to ask the camera office what happened, it is very unusual without aggravating factors like disputing the offence.

If there is S172 as well them for whatever reason they have not accepted your nomination. Rejecting it for no dob would seem pedantic but quite likely a fixed penalty clerk role attracts incessant pedants.

[Melchett]

The only offence is "drove a motor vehicle on a road whilst not wearing a seatbelt in conformity with regulation 5(1)(a)of the motor vehicles regulations 1993" so yes, the only charge is the seatbelt.

Time line taken from the witness statement in the SJPN.... it was a works vehicle.

The original NIP was issued to the registered keeper at the time of the offence, this being xxxxxx on 3rd July

On 10 July the NIP was returned to the office. The NIP had not been signed or dated but nominated driver details had been completed.

On 12 July a NIP was issued to Mr xxxxxxx (nominated driver)

On 18 July the NIP was returned to the office.

The returned NIP had been signed and name printed & dated 16 July. xxxxxx admitted he was the driver at the time of the offence. He provided his
driving licence number of xxxxxxxxxxxxxx but no date of birth.

I have used the DVLA driving licence database to look at the licence image issued to xxxxxxxx at the same address I noticed that the driver matched the image on the licence

Now the only other thing I can think of is that I was driving a 7.5 tonne vehicle at the time, would this make any difference?

[Melchett]

Just read through it again & found this from witness statement from the safer roads partnership administrative officer.....

From information received a further s172 request for driver details was sent to Mr xxxxxxxx by Royal mail first class post. I produce marked exhibit B a copy of that request.

The above form was subsequently returned and purports to be a signed admission, that the person to whom it was addressed, was the driver at the time of the offence.

Due to the circumstances the matter will have to be placed before the courts

What circumstances?

This post has been edited by Melchett: Wed, 1 Aug 2018 - 20:11

[notmeatloaf]

Basically, you are required to give information requested by the police in a S172.

They have requested your date of birth. You haven't provided it. Therefore they are, one can only imagine, saying they cannot be sure that the person on the form and the person on the driving licence is the same, because they asked you to fill in everything on the form.

You normally see it in cases of signatures. Here they are just being twattish.

Unfortunately you don't have any right to a fixed penalty unless they offer it - they are entitled to send it to court if they want to be difficult. As said in court, or by post, you can request the magistrates sentence at fixed penalty levels., as they are guided to do in their sentencing guidelines if a fixed penalty isn't taken up for reasons unconnected to the offence.

That will either be £100 or £215, depending on whether they add £85 costs and £30 victim surcharge on top or incorporate it .

Assuming you are being honest and didn't draw a ***** on the form or anything this is the sort of incident that brings the police into disrepute and it is a shame PSDs don't crack down on it harder.

Edit: pen.is is censored? Well I never.

[southpaw82]

Penis.

[Melchett]

Yes I'm being totally honest, I didn't deface the form at all, just neglected to fill in my DOB.

Apart from a couple of speeding offences in the 80's I've never had any dealings with the police & this has come as a bit of a surprise to be honest.

I totally acknowledge it's my cock up & that, technically, I didn't supply what they asked for but I didn't realise they could be so petty, after all I gave them my licence number
which had all the information they needed!

Ah well, live & learn etc etc.

As said in court, or by post, you can request the magistrates sentence at fixed penalty levels., as they are guided to do in their sentencing guidelines if a fixed penalty
isn't taken up for reasons unconnected to the offence.

I've certainly never dealt with a court, ever, so any suggestions on the correct phrasing to achieve the best outcome would be greatly appreciated, I have no idea how or what to say.

Thanks for the help!

This post has been edited by Melchett: Thu, 2 Aug 2018 - 17:03