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DVLA SORN Vehicle Fine - Private Area?
t88
post Sun, 26 Feb 2017 - 22:57
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Good Evening People,

I received a ugly letter from the DVLA regarding a fine of £473 for unlicensed vehicle. My car was declared SORN to the DVLA over 7 months ago due to large number of repairs needed on the car at the time. The car in not currently drivable and has been stationary and in the same place since. This has been explained to the DVLA, however they are saying it does not comply with the law

The car is positioned outside the apartment i live which is for residents only. They have gave me the option to pay the fine or go to court. I am pretty sure it is private area where the car has been for the last 7 months and therefore the fine should not been payable.

I have included images of the letter and the GPS they have given. By looking at the image they have entered the residinatial area and taken the image as there are hedges in front of the main road which blocks the view. I would be grateful in some advice on this matter and if i have a case if i was to go to court.


Many thanks in advance




https://goo.gl/maps/iH9SDAidh6T2
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post Sun, 26 Feb 2017 - 22:57
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peterguk
post Sun, 26 Feb 2017 - 23:00
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QUOTE (t88 @ Sun, 26 Feb 2017 - 22:57) *
The car is positioned outside the apartment i live which is for residents only.

I am pretty sure it is private area where the car has been for the last 7 months and therefore the fine should not been payable.


If in front of the gates that's not a very private area. Not sure i'd be trying my luck in court.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Sun, 26 Feb 2017 - 23:01


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t88
post Sun, 26 Feb 2017 - 23:07
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More towards to the centre of that area - https://goo.gl/maps/mcLL7ZMBqvT2
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peterguk
post Sun, 26 Feb 2017 - 23:08
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QUOTE (t88 @ Sun, 26 Feb 2017 - 23:07) *
More towards to the centre of that area - https://goo.gl/maps/mcLL7ZMBqvT2


Where the public clearly have access to.


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andy_foster
post Sun, 26 Feb 2017 - 23:16
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 26 Feb 2017 - 23:08) *
Where the public clearly have access to.


And what exactly does the public having or not having access to an area go to do with the question of whether or not the land is maintained at public expense?



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peterguk
post Sun, 26 Feb 2017 - 23:22
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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Sun, 26 Feb 2017 - 23:16) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Sun, 26 Feb 2017 - 23:08) *
Where the public clearly have access to.


And what exactly does the public having or not having access to an area go to do with the question of whether or not the land is maintained at public expense?




My bad. Was confusing with insurance.

So OP would just need to prove the road is not maintained at public expense.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Sun, 26 Feb 2017 - 23:23


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Logician
post Sun, 26 Feb 2017 - 23:24
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Whether it is drivable or not is unimportant, what matters is whether it is on a public road, which in this context is a road repairable at public expenses. So what you need to find out is who is responsible for repairing that road. If it is the local council, then the vehicle must be licensed, if it is the landlord or the owners of the apartments then the vehicle can be put on SORN.
Requirement for VED
Definition of 'public road'


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andy_foster
post Sun, 26 Feb 2017 - 23:33
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@OP - Have the DVLA acknowledged the SORN?

The letter contains a substantially untrue statement. The law does not require that any motor vehicle which is used or kept is licensed. It requires that any motor vehicle used or kept on a public road or other land maintained at public expense is licensed. It also requires (subject to exemptions that clearly do not apply to this case) that any vehicle which is registered is either licensed or declared SORN.

From the letter, it is not immediately apparent which of these is the root of the complaint.


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mickR
post Sun, 26 Feb 2017 - 23:36
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Im still struggling to find wherevit was actually parked !!
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t88
post Sun, 26 Feb 2017 - 23:48
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@andy_foster - When replying to the DVLA letter 2 weeks ago, it was stated to them the car was SORN hence why the fine should not be payable, unfortunately i don't have the original letter they sent or a copy of it..

I will get written confirmation from the land owner if it is area is maintained by the public expense

QUOTE (mickR @ Sun, 26 Feb 2017 - 23:36) *
Im still struggling to find wherevit was actually parked !!


Best i can get from Google Maps, it is red car behind the Mercedes

https://goo.gl/maps/cBaH2XvkBsR2
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Logician
post Mon, 27 Feb 2017 - 00:20
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As mentioned above, the public clearly has access to that area, and therefore the vehicle needs to be insured, and in an interesting collision of definitions that would seem to apply even if DVLA accept that it could be SORNed in that location. That is not the issue at the moment, but it could become one if the police take an interest.

I think you need to move the behind the gate if you can or move it elsewhere, get it repaired and on the road, or sell it to a scrapper or someone else.


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andy_foster
post Mon, 27 Feb 2017 - 01:57
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Whether or not a place is a public place (for the purposes of insurance, etc.) is a matter of fact and degree. The fact that there is little to physically stop the general public from entering a place does not make it a public place, and more than a lack of a physical barrier would make a your front garden or driveway a public place.

@OP, you appear not to have answered my question. When you sent off the SORN declaration, did the DVLA send you any form of acknowledgement? Alternatively, if you go to https://vehicleenquiry.service.gov.uk/ and enter your VRM and make,what does it say about the status/tax due/etc.?

In order to defend against the allegation, it is often helpful to understand what the allegation actually is.

If the DVLA received and processed the SORN declaration (prior to the incident), then the live issue is simply whether or not it is maintained at public expense (and/or potentially whether the photos which clearly show the car parked on the block paving in front of the private block of flats show it is on the public road, or in front of the private block of flats).

However, if the DVLA claim not to have received the SORN declaration, the issue would seem to be whether it was served - which would be a finding of fact for the court to make irrespective of whether or not in reality it was or was not served.


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t88
post Mon, 27 Feb 2017 - 08:31
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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 27 Feb 2017 - 01:57) *
@OP, you appear not to have answered my question. When you sent off the SORN declaration, did the DVLA send you any form of acknowledgement? Alternatively, if you go to https://vehicleenquiry.service.gov.uk/ and enter your VRM and make,what does it say about the status/tax due/etc.?


I did receive letter acknowledgement from DVLA when declaring SORN, also the the link you have attached it shows the vehicle is SORN. No information about TAX on their, show MOT expired and vehicle status SORN in place.

By looking at the images they have provided, they have entered the drive and then captured the images. As from the main road it is impossible to take a any images due to hedges in the way. Are they allowed to do this?
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The Rookie
post Mon, 27 Feb 2017 - 10:30
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Whether they are allowed to do it (they are) is irrelevant, as noted above its whether than land is maintained at the public expense.

Instead of focusing on information that isnt critical it would be better to focus on information that is!


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Logician
post Mon, 27 Feb 2017 - 19:44
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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 27 Feb 2017 - 01:57) *
Whether or not a place is a public place (for the purposes of insurance, etc.) is a matter of fact and degree. The fact that there is little to physically stop the general public from entering a place does not make it a public place, and more than a lack of a physical barrier would make a your front garden or driveway a public place.


Agreed, but the dictum of Lord Sands in1932 has often been approved and applied subsequently: Any road may be regarded as a road to which the public have access upon which members of the public are to be found who have not obtained access either by overcoming a physical obstruction or in defiance of prohibition express or implied.

The area in question is a road, it goes from one place to another. As the access to a very large block of flats it must be used by all the residents, their visitors and delivery staff, and at least one other person, the DVLA enforcement employee who took the picture, surely too large a group to be a special class of the public. I do accept though that I should have said that it appears to me that the public have access.

This post has been edited by Logician: Mon, 27 Feb 2017 - 19:45


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The Rookie
post Mon, 27 Feb 2017 - 20:21
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Irrelevant though, as Andy notes it would/may be relevant for insurance (or drink driving or other similar issue) but for VED it's who pays to maintain it that is relevant.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
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Logician
post Mon, 27 Feb 2017 - 20:46
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 27 Feb 2017 - 20:21) *
Irrelevant though, as Andy notes it would/may be relevant for insurance (or drink driving or other similar issue) but for VED it's who pays to maintain it that is relevant.


Indeed, as I said above in #7, but you are missing the point made in #11 that the vehicle probably needs to be insured, which it may well not be as the owner has SORNed it.



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peterguk
post Mon, 27 Feb 2017 - 20:49
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QUOTE (Logician @ Mon, 27 Feb 2017 - 20:46) *
the vehicle probably needs to be insured, which it may well not be as the owner has SORNed it.


I made no more reference to insurance than what i did as i suspected if i did i would be flamed by the powers that be for raising potential issues that are irrelevant to OP's reason for posting. cool.gif


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Logician
post Mon, 27 Feb 2017 - 20:56
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Mon, 27 Feb 2017 - 20:49) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Mon, 27 Feb 2017 - 20:46) *
the vehicle probably needs to be insured, which it may well not be as the owner has SORNed it.
I made no more reference to insurance than what i did as i suspected if i did i would be flamed by the powers that be for raising potential issues that are irrelevant to OP's reason for posting. cool.gif


I mentioned it as the OP may be inadvertently and unknowingly committing a much more serious offence than the one he posted about, and may need to take action, the purpose of the board being to help posters, perhaps even when they are not aware they need help?



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t88
post Mon, 27 Feb 2017 - 22:26
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the landowner did confirm that area where the car was photgrgraphed is a private road which is maintained and paid for by the residents of the premises.
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