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Incorrect SJP issued, after after posting,phoning and emailing in S172, Incorrect SJP issued, after after posting,phoning and emailing in S172
MessiBarca
post Mon, 7 May 2018 - 20:39
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Hi guys

I really need your help. I've received a SJPN dated 20/04/2018. I need to respond to them by 11/05/2018 which doesn't leave me much time

I was the named driver of a vehicle that was caught speeding by a "home office type approved device" on a dual carriage way in Lancashire on 06/08/2017 travelling at 61 on a 50mph zone.

The alleged speeding offence occurred on 6th August 2017 - over 6 months ago? Is this of any relevance in my case as I have read mixed reviews on this in the last couple of hours?!

Anyway the following took place

• A S172/NIP was sent to the registered keeper of the vehicle (my mother) on 11th August 2017.

• This was followed by a reminder letter to my mother which arrived on 4/09/2017 but the actual latter was dated for the day before 03/09/17, this letter requested details of the driver at the time of the alleged offence.

• On 11/09/ 2017, I the registered keeper’s son, PHONED the Lancashire CPU advising that the original S172 had already been returned by post. They stated they had not been received the original and asked I send in the reminder. I asked whether this reminder S172 reminder could be sent by email as well to avoid any mailing issues; they stated it would need to be a document via post.

This time I took a photo of the 03/09/2017 S172 reminder before posting back (which nominated me, the son as the driver). Don't have a photo of the original s172 sent to my mother

•I PHONED the Lancashire CPU again on 26/09/2017 asking if they had received and explained this nomination had already been posted by my mother to them. They said it hadn't yet been received to so I took the email address of the lady officer I was speaking with and said to email it her and she said she would make a note on the system of this, and would note that I had phoned in to check and also of my admission I was the driver and the reminder S172 has still hasn't been received by them

• On 27/11/ 2017, the day after my phone call, they finally received the completed S172 reminder nominating me (the son) as the driver and on the same date a new S172/NIP was sent to me dated 27/09/17

•This S172/NIP was completed by me and posted on 10/10/17.

• On 19/10/ 2017 I received a reminder letter stating that no reply to the previous S172 and that a response is required within 7 days and to advise the department immediately if you have already responded - however the first S172 in my name had already been posted to them by this date on 10/10/17

•on 30/10/17 I emailed the CPU lady officer a copy of this original s172 for their information and explained I had posted this very same document already on 10/10/17

• the next day 31/10/2017, the CPU lady officer acknowledged (by an email reply) that the copy and my admission of the completed reminder but advised that this could NOT be accepted by email and that I needed to return the reminder S172 now as well

•on 01/11/2017 - reminder s172 completed and posted back.

• Just to be sure they received the s172, I emailed again on 09/11/17 enquiring whether if this had been received but was told it hadn't been received again! They asked when it had been posted and if anything else was inside the envelope.

• I waited a few days and emailed again on 15/11/ 2017 to check asking for an update, explained nothing was in the envelope but did NOT receive any reply of any sorts from the CPU lady officer

*regrettably I didn't send the s172 documents back with special or signed for delivery - from what I can recollect it was a second class stamp and I think I got proof of postage but I can't find them as it's been over 6 months *

• After this I received the SJPN in the post dated 20/04/18 stating ONE CHARGE " 1. Fail to give information relating to the ID of the driver / rider of a vehicle when required" - NO OTHER charges are listed

Please advice on how best to deal with this as the initial charge in my opinion is incorrect? It should be for speeding only.

If it goes to court am I likely to win? What are the additional charges for going to court? And how much more will it be if I lose? I'm not even sure if I'll be able to get the time off to attend a day in court? Is it a full day thing? Do we have any say on the day it occurs?

If I did plead guilty to this failing to provide ID charge on the SJPN, what's the best and worst outcome? How many points and financially how much will I get penalised approximately? As I only work part time.

I was really annoyed at receiving the SJPN especially considering the number of emails I sent so I managed to phone the CPU and get the name of the of the CPU manager. I googled her name and found the email address. I put in a written lengthy complaint explaining the above, that it was a failure on their part in receiving the posted S172s and their failure to acknowledge my S172 emails containing this my admission as an attachment was no fault of my own. I concluded the email with "With the above proofs in mind, can you cancel the incorrect single justice procedure notice with immediate effect? My admissions and emails from September to November 2017 clearly absolve me of the 'failing to provide information of the ID of the driver' charge putforth against me, when it is clearly present as an email attachment. Your failure to acknowledge my S172 admission letter and actually respond to my 15/11/2017 email with no reply of any sort is no fault of my own.

Section 5 of the 'Penalty notices – fixed penalty notices and penalty notices for disorder' from the Magistrates Sentencing Council states "where a penalty notice could not be offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender, the starting point should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be imposed."

With the above proofs in mind, I would therefore ask you cancel the incorrect single justice procedure notice with immediate effect and given my s172 admission letter and ask the fine be given at the statutory Fixed Penalty Notice level of £100, as should have originally occurred.
I look forward to hearing from you promptly"

The CPU manager replied stating the charge will stand and the CPU are not at fault and it was my fault?! I quote "My conclusion is that it is due to your failure to provide the information in accordance with the reasonable instructions outlined on the S172 request and within the statutory timescales, which has resulted in the case proceeding to the issue of the SJP and as such, putting the Police to cost. For the above reason, the SJP notice will not be cancelled and will proceed to a court hearing. Please clearly respond to the SJP notice indicating your plea to the offence charged.

Alternatively, if you wish to formally admit to the speeding offence; the Magistrates’ can, in certain circumstances, amend the charge to that of speeding, however they will require this request in writing. However, regardless of how this case is dealt with, the Police will be making an application for a costs award at the conclusion of your case as there has been no error on their part."

I've responded asking her to clarify a few points in her email but I do not have the luxury of time to wait for a response as I need to submit the form back to them by 10/05/18 at the VERY LATEST so it reaches there on day 21 on 11/05/18.

Any help or advice would be much appreciated

This post has been edited by MessiBarca: Wed, 9 May 2018 - 09:05
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post Mon, 7 May 2018 - 20:39
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MessiBarca
post Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 18:06
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Hi guys

Just an update - I submitted my not guiltily plea online on 7th May (near 6 weeks ago) and I am yet to hear anything at all... How long do they take to respond?should I try and chase this up or wait and watch?
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The Rookie
post Tue, 19 Jun 2018 - 07:13
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Just wait, once its gone before the SJ they'll send it to court who will then allocate a slot and send you the details, 6 weeks isn't unusual.


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MessiBarca
post Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 19:59
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Hi guys,

Finally received a letter in the post on Saturday 22/6/18 (2 days ago)

The letter states:

Notice of changes to hearing

The cases listed below were to be heard on 31sr May 2018 at 9.30am at X. The court will now hear them on

27 June at 2.00pm at X (different court a half hour away)

The defendant should come to court or a warrant may be issued. Otherwise the case maybe heard in the defendants absence.

This is:
For prosecution to consider possible guilty plea to speeding offence.

K Townsend
Justices Clerk

Date: 31 May 2018

Cases:

On 6/8/17 in Lancashire, having been required by or on behalf of the Chief officer of police in Lancashire, failed to give information relating to the ID of the driver of a vehicle, namely X, who was alleged to have been guilty of an offence contrary to section 172(3) of the RTA 1998 and schedule 2
Od the RTOA 1998.


________________________________________________

Strangely enough... I never received any notification at all of the 31st May court hearing (which has passed 3 weeks ago) yet the letter itself is dated 31st May?? However the envelope in which I received the letters is dated 22/6/18 when I received it in the post

QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 19 Jun 2018 - 08:13) *
Just wait, once its gone before the SJ they'll send it to court who will then allocate a slot and send you the details, 6 weeks isn't unusual.



Now that I’ve received a court date which is only 3 days away...

Can you all please provide any advice on how I should prepare the defence? It would be much appreciated. What do I need to take with me?? Should I print a timeline of events out

Is this letter the ‘actual court case’ or the part before the court case is heard???

This post has been edited by MessiBarca: Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 20:09
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The Rookie
post Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 20:26
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The single Justice reviewed your case and plea on the 31st, you can’t be invited to that as you know.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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MessiBarca
post Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 22:54
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QUOTE (MessiBarca @ Fri, 18 May 2018 - 00:49) *
QUOTE (Colin_S @ Wed, 16 May 2018 - 13:42) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 9 May 2018 - 18:25) *
The requirement is to provide the information required, not necessarily to use their form to do it. If a scanned form fulfils the purpose of providing admissible evidence of the driver the fact that it’s not a wet ink signature on their form shouldn’t matter.



QUOTE (NewJudge @ Wed, 9 May 2018 - 19:41) *
I believe that a scanned/copied S172 return (provided it is properly completed and signed) would meet the requirements of S172 and a prosecution under that section would not succeed. But the reason a Ticket Office might routinely reject such a return is that (on the perhaps dubious premise that a copy/scan is easier to fabricate or falsify than an original) should the copied return be used to support a speeding allegation the alleged driver could turn up and say “I didn’t complete and sign that. It’s been forged”.


Just completing a S172 form for Kent Police and the FAQ's include the following:

Can I deliver mail by hand or Email a copy of my Notice?
You can email a scanned copy of your completed signed notice to ........


Can you add a photo /copy of this so I can show it as proof that the law isn't uniform nationwide when I go to court? Cheers


Can you add or email me a photo /copy of this so I can show it in court as evidence that one particular police force accepts that an email response is sufficient?

QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 21:26) *
The single Justice reviewed your case and plea on the 31st, you can’t be invited to that as you know.


I don’t quite follow - it says “Notice of changes to hearing“ which would suggest that’s the initial hearing? And not a review by the SJ? Or am I misinterpreting the letter. Can anyone clarify please?

This post has been edited by MessiBarca: Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 22:54
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MessiBarca
post Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 23:26
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 24 Jun 2018 - 21:26) *
The single Justice reviewed your case and plea on the 31st, you can’t be invited to that as you know.


Hi, I read somewhere that the 1st hearing will usually be for plea, then a trial date set of you plead not guilty, so is this letter I’ve recieved DEFINITELY a trial date or a date for plea entry???
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The Rookie
post Mon, 25 Jun 2018 - 04:48
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Your plea was entered at the first hearing before the single justice, obvious really?


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NewJudge
post Mon, 25 Jun 2018 - 10:18
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The process varies from area to area. In some areas, when a SJ hears a case where a Not Guilty plea is entered, a trial date is set at that time. In others a date is set for a preliminary hearing where a case management exercise will take place (this is to discover the disputed issues, whether witnesses need to attend, etc.). You need to phone the court to find out which it is.
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MessiBarca
post Mon, 25 Jun 2018 - 12:21
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Mon, 25 Jun 2018 - 11:18) *
The process varies from area to area. In some areas, when a SJ hears a case where a Not Guilty plea is entered, a trial date is set at that time. In others a date is set for a preliminary hearing where a case management exercise will take place (this is to discover the disputed issues, whether witnesses need to attend, etc.). You need to phone the court to find out which it is.



Hi many thanks for clarifying, I’m glad you replied and I took your advice.. I phoned the magistrates court... the chap I spoke to was really unsure himself what the letter meant so after a half hour on the phone, he concluded that this date is for the “provisional hearing” and depending on the outcome (ie. if I plead not guilty) it will decide if a Court case trial date is to be set...

Howverr, he also stated that having spoken to his “admin team who deal with traffic offences” they stated that on this preliminary hearing, they would offer me the plea bargain instead of the original offence FTF listed. Should I reject the offer a court date will be set in due course...

What are your thoughts guys on how best to proceed?
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The Rookie
post Mon, 25 Jun 2018 - 12:35
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Personally I'd take the plea bargain, while you have a defence to the failing to furnish charge its not 100% robust, you would be risking an extra 3 points and about £850 (ish) if you fail.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
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Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
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peterguk
post Mon, 25 Jun 2018 - 13:00
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 25 Jun 2018 - 13:35) *
Personally I'd take the plea bargain


+1
In addition to above, the correct justice would have been served since you admit to being the driver of the vehicle whilst it was caugght speeding.


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MessiBarca
post Mon, 25 Jun 2018 - 16:50
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Mon, 25 Jun 2018 - 14:00) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 25 Jun 2018 - 13:35) *
Personally I'd take the plea bargain


+1
In addition to above, the correct justice would have been served since you admit to being the driver of the vehicle whilst it was caugght speeding.


For the amount of aggravation they’ve caused me I’m not sure the correct justice has been served!? The time and effort I’ve wasted behind this chasing up sending lengthy emails to them...

Had common sense prevailed and the CPU acknowledged they were wrong by ignoring my email asking for an update, but instead, they sent me a SJP with the incorrect charge in an effort to justify their own incompetence, of lapsing on the initial speeding charge; as they missed the 6 months cut off date to present the original speeding charge to the court.

Instead the CPU deputy manager Katrina was acting like an arrogant ignoramus. Even my previous attempts to phone the cpu were met with hostility, defiance and arrogance and they were incredibly unhelpful.. this seems to be a common theme. They are public servants who are meant to serve us not trying to ‘frame’ individuals

This post has been edited by MessiBarca: Mon, 25 Jun 2018 - 17:03
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Jlc
post Mon, 25 Jun 2018 - 16:57
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Customer service isn’t something they provide wink.gif
You have a choice on how you want to proceed...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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MessiBarca
post Mon, 25 Jun 2018 - 17:05
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 25 Jun 2018 - 17:57) *
Customer service isn’t something they provide wink.gif
You have a choice on how you want to proceed...


Indeed, let’s hope they don’t go back on their work about the bargain plea on the day, not holding my breath. Would you accept the bargain plea JLC? Will keep you all posted.
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Jlc
post Mon, 25 Jun 2018 - 18:13
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QUOTE (MessiBarca @ Mon, 25 Jun 2018 - 18:05) *
Would you accept the bargain plea JLC?

Well it's an known outcome and arguably 'justice' is done. Only you know if you want to fight on principles and they can be expensive. Bear in mind you may have to take it to a higher court...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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MessiBarca
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 16:51
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 25 Jun 2018 - 19:13) *
QUOTE (MessiBarca @ Mon, 25 Jun 2018 - 18:05) *
Would you accept the bargain plea JLC?

Well it's an known outcome and arguably 'justice' is done. Only you know if you want to fight on principles and they can be expensive. Bear in mind you may have to take it to a higher court...


Hi guys, can I expect to have associated costs of £85 and victim surcharge of 10% of the fine (min £30) with this? As has it technically reached the court?

Some of the plea bargain cases I’ve read state “I was given 3 points and a £215 fine (£100 fine + £30 victim surcharge + £85 costs).”


Also is there any scope to request a speed awareness course instead of the 3 points at this stage?has that ever been known to be negotiated at the closing stages??
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Jlc
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 17:52
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QUOTE (MessiBarca @ Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 17:51) *
Hi guys, can I expect to have associated costs of £85 and victim surcharge of 10% of the fine (min £30) with this? As has it technically reached the court?

Yes, the surcharge, at least, cannot be avoided.

QUOTE (MessiBarca @ Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 17:51) *
Also is there any scope to request a speed awareness course instead of the 3 points at this stage?has that ever been known to be negotiated at the closing stages??

The court cannot issue courses. The best you could get is a fixed penalty equivalent sentence: (From Mag's sentencing guidelines)

QUOTE
When sentencing in cases in which a penalty notice was available:
* the fact that the offender did not take advantage of the penalty (whether that was by requesting a
hearing or failing to pay within the specified timeframe) does not increase the seriousness of the
offence and must not be regarded as an aggravating factor. The appropriate sentence must be
determined in accordance with the sentencing principles set out above (including the amount of
any fine, which must take an offender’s financial circumstances into account), disregarding the
availability of the penalty;
* where a penalty notice could not be offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence
itself, such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender, the starting point
should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be
imposed. The offender should not be disadvantaged by the unavailability of the penalty notice in
these circumstances. A list of offences for which penalty notices are available, and the amount of
the penalty, is set out in Annex B.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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NewJudge
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 18:00
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QUOTE (MessiBarca @ Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 17:51) *
Hi guys, can I expect to have associated costs of £85 and victim surcharge of 10% of the fine (min £30) with this? As has it technically reached the court?

Some of the plea bargain cases I’ve read state “I was given 3 points and a £215 fine (£100 fine + £30 victim surcharge + £85 costs).”


Magistrates have guidance which says this:

"Where a penalty notice could not be offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender, the starting point should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be imposed. The offender should not be disadvantaged by the unavailability of the penalty notice in these circumstances.
"

I'm not sure (without reading through the thread) why it was not possible for you to accept a fixed penalty (or indeed if one was offered). If the above applies you should ask the court to sentence you with the Fixed Penalty equivalent. In many courts they interpret this by way of a £70 fine, a £30 surcharge and no costs (they have no power to remit the Surcharge but they can do so with the costs).

QUOTE (MessiBarca @ Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 17:51) *
Also is there any scope to request a speed awareness course instead of the 3 points at this stage?has that ever been known to be negotiated at the closing stages??

No. The opportunity for a course is gone. The court has no power to order a course instead of a fine and points.
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Jlc
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 18:19
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The excess is 3 points but the fine will be income related (1/3 of weekly relevant earnings for a guilty plea). If they agree to sentence at a FP equivalent then only the fine could be reduced, but every little helps.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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MessiBarca
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 19:14
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 19:19) *
The excess is 3 points but the fine will be income related (1/3 of weekly relevant earnings for a guilty plea). If they agree to sentence at a FP equivalent then only the fine could be reduced, but every little helps.


Hi JLC, I don’t follow, I’ll have to pay the £30 surcharge regardless? Although I’m not clear why if I’m going to be offered a plea bargain (especially as I wasn’t really at fault)?

Again if I’m to agree on a plea bargain why would I receive a fine that is ‘income related’ I thought a plea bargain would mean a direct swap so I would expect to receive 3 points and £100 fine - nothing more as per the original COFP I should have been offered?

If they agree to sentence at the fixed penalty level - why is it that only the £100 fine can be reduced? And by how much if any?
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