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PCN - York Coppergate Bus Lane Penalty charge Notice - Section 34J
sophie.turner
post Thu, 2 Jul 2020 - 16:44
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Hi Please can I ask for your advice.

I want to fight this but don't know where to start and have run out of time (Last day for reduced fine).

Is it better to just pay the reduced fine? - I was dropping off/ giving away a children bicycle for someone on gumtree.

I received the below PCN - Bus Lane Charge Notice
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Contravention : 34J Being in a bus lane (camera enforcement)
Location : Coppergate Bus Lane (York)


1. PCN - Fron Page - https://imgur.com/LlCL7x9
2. PCN - Back Page - https://imgur.com/F8Iw7S0
2. PCN - Page 3 - https://imgur.com/P8GtwE6
2. PCN - Page 4 - https://imgur.com/9Kxzswf
3. Bus Lane enforcement map - Highlighted in yellow - Vertical yellow line is somewhere that camera must have been - https://imgur.com/lARWU9M
4. Google Street View of approach & Signage - https://imgur.com/6wybh8E
5. Google Street View of approach & Signage - https://imgur.com/fbrlZ0J
6. Google Street View of approach & Signage - https://imgur.com/YPOpLIu
7. Google Street View of approach & Signage - https://imgur.com/V9NeJHG
8. Google Street View of approach & Signage - https://imgur.com/zEFpM6x
9. Google Street View of approach & Signage - https://imgur.com/wnpB425
10. York Council - Image of not able to load PCN Objection - https://imgur.com/dEJDFod

They sent another PCN letter, will update post if different to uploaded image.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My main points of contension are the following -

1. The loading restrictions signage cannot be read until you commit to going straight onto the Bus lane enforcement area.
2. I was dropping of a childs bike during allowed loading period 4-6pm as per signage. However I do not know if I qualify to perform loading if that makes sense.
3. I am unable to load the evidence here, I was sent 2 letters. I will update post if other letter differs in any way.


Please let me know if I have any grounds of appeal or should recommend I pay the reduced fine.

Thank you in advance for your advice.

This post has been edited by sophie.turner: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 - 19:14
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post Thu, 2 Jul 2020 - 16:44
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 4 Jul 2020 - 19:55
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I would suggest that the AWS still does not notify the times as per Knapp both here and M?CR and that the location of the sign still leaves a driver stuck by the time they are in position to read it


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cp8759
post Sun, 5 Jul 2020 - 12:58
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 4 Jul 2020 - 20:55) *
I would suggest that the AWS still does not notify the times as per Knapp both here and M?CR and that the location of the sign still leaves a driver stuck by the time they are in position to read it

+1, and the review did not alter that decision.


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Mad Mick V
post Sun, 5 Jul 2020 - 19:50
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OP-----whilst all this was being kicked about, today is the last day for the discount (online). TBH unless PMB or cp8759 can come up with viable reps soonest, I would pay.

Whilst I can see what they mean I think we have run out of time discountwise.

Mick
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cp8759
post Sun, 5 Jul 2020 - 21:10
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Sun, 5 Jul 2020 - 20:50) *
OP-----whilst all this was being kicked about, today is the last day for the discount (online). TBH unless PMB or cp8759 can come up with viable reps soonest, I would pay.

Both PMB and I seem to agree a LATOR 18 argument can be made against the signs. Also see the recent victory re: Reading Minster Street, it's not that dissimilar.


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sophie.turner
post Mon, 6 Jul 2020 - 08:12
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Hi, Thanks to @mike @cp8759 @pastbybest for all your input.

Today is the last day to appeal at the reduced ticket. Have read everything and really appreciate the input. I am unsure if I'd be able to overturn the PCN this time even though I feel that the signage is confusing leading to other innocent motorist to committing the same mistake.

Please let me know if there is a strong case for appeal in this situation.

Thank you for all your help and information.
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cp8759
post Mon, 6 Jul 2020 - 08:29
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Sophie the situation here is quite simple: PMB and I think you could win an appeal based on the inadequacy of the signage, which you also concluded was, let's say, sub-optimal. We cannot guarantee the outcome, but if it comes to it I'd be more than happy to represent you at the tribunal.


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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 6 Jul 2020 - 10:44
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 6 Jul 2020 - 09:29) *
Sophie the situation here is quite simple: PMB and I think you could win an appeal based on the inadequacy of the signage, which you also concluded was, let's say, sub-optimal. We cannot guarantee the outcome, but if it comes to it I'd be more than happy to represent you at the tribunal.


I would take CP up on his offer. Even if he was unsuccessful, and i doubt it. The knowledge you will gain going through the process will be well worth the extra £30 quid and stand you in good stead for next time.

+ you will have about 4-6 months to save up


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sophie.turner
post Mon, 6 Jul 2020 - 13:05
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Thanks for the encouraging comments, it has given me confidence to fight this PCN.
I'll draft an appeal on the main point of inadequacy of the signage. I am not well versed with the traffic regulations, so i will use the information from here to base my appeal upon. If you can suggest any other traffic regulations or precedent not already mentioned here I will include that also.

Thank you all, appreciate your kind help.

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John U.K.
post Mon, 6 Jul 2020 - 13:23
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QUOTE
I'll draft an appeal


Post your draft here for comment before sending.
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cp8759
post Mon, 6 Jul 2020 - 14:42
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QUOTE (John U.K. @ Mon, 6 Jul 2020 - 14:23) *
QUOTE
I'll draft an appeal


Post your draft here for comment before sending.

+1, also it's a representation rather than an appeal.


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sophie.turner
post Tue, 7 Jul 2020 - 11:08
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 6 Jul 2020 - 15:42) *
QUOTE (John U.K. @ Mon, 6 Jul 2020 - 14:23) *
QUOTE
I'll draft an appeal


Post your draft here for comment before sending.

+1, also it's a representation rather than an appeal.


Managed to draft an appeal and submit it before midnight yesterday. I was unable to post it here before submission as it was quite late in the evening and wanted to send it in before the expiry of the discounted time frame. Below is the submitted representation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Sir or Madam,

Representation against Penalty Charge Notice

Parking Charge Notice (PCN) Number – YR0046XXXX
Vehicle Registration – XXXX XXX

I received a Bus lane Penalty Charge Notice through the post on the 23rd June, 2020 but I believe that the ticket was wrongly issued and there are mitigating circumstances to explain why the intervention occurred.

On the late afternoon of the 18th June 2020, I drove through Coppergate to give away a children’s bike. I approached coppergate from the direction of pavement street. While at the traffic light junction on pavement street the signs for traffic enforcement could be seen but the conditional restrictions for the traffic enforcement could not be read. It was only by moving forward at the traffic junction that the signage could be read. There was no advance warning notice present to ascertain the conditional restrictions of the traffic enforcement zone. Only by committing to proceed forward could the conditional restrictions be read and which meant that the information on the signage had to be conveyed clearly within a split second for the driver to make a conscious safe decision.

The conditional restrictions of the traffic enforcement zone has FOUR restriction conditions ( A-restricted zone for motor vehicles, B – restrictions applicable between 8 am – 6pm, C - exemption for local buses and permit holders, D – loading conditions allowed between 10 am – 4 pm ) within one sign and not to mention the other signage indicating Traffic enforcement camera zone and finally the signage for Coppergate itself. All these signs have to be taken in and processed by the driver in a safe and timely manner which in this case I would argue is not possible given the split second nature of the decision having to be taken when proceeding safely in traffic. As I was performing a loading action I believed I was allowed to proceed.

The PCN received in the post indicates that the contravention was an “Bus Lane Penalty Charge Notice“. There is no signage nor road markings to indicate that this was BUS Lane that was being entered onto and indicate as such. Clearly this is not a valid “Bus Lane penalty Charge Notice” as the signage indicates it is not a Bus Lane since permit holders and loading vehicles of any vehicle type can have access thus making it not a bus land and enforceable as such. Please see the adjudication of Mr knapp in the case of Nigel Rhodes v City of York Council.

I would also put forward that there were technical hurdles in making this representation as the Enquirers number given on the PCN of 1904 554 614 is an automated message only. I have sent two unanswered emails requesting the evidence from York Council parking department. These emails have not been responded to and only automated acknowledgement received back. The confusion within the York Council’s two different online systems for PCNs issued.

For the aforementioned reasons mainly as stated above, I put forward that the PCN is not valid and kindly should be rescinded. I look forward to your favorable reply.

With regards,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope I was able to convey the main points advised on here. Thank you all for your help, it is really appreciated.

This post has been edited by sophie.turner: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 - 11:09
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sophie.turner
post Tue, 7 Jul 2020 - 11:19
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I also discovered that York Council are using 2 different url's for their online objection / pay PCN systems. I was unable to view evidence of incident as I was clicking through York council's official website --> Parking Services --> Pay/Object to PCN. I admit if I had read the PCN earlier that I could have spotted a different url for the PCN i was issued.

It just seems ingenious that they have 2 different systems for PCN and do not mention " Look, there is another part of the site you need to go to " wording if in the wrong section. Also the PCN has an inquiries number stated that is just an answer maching, my speculation is that this Bus Lane ANPR has been outsourced to a private company and not the in-house parking services department.

This post has been edited by sophie.turner: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 - 12:39
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 7 Jul 2020 - 14:35
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That will be rejected so what will you do then allow us to help you to appeal or pay the discount (if it is reoffered) ?


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sophie.turner
post Tue, 7 Jul 2020 - 16:56
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 7 Jul 2020 - 15:35) *
That will be rejected so what will you do then allow us to help you to appeal or pay the discount (if it is reoffered) ?


@Pastmybest, yes I would accept the help with the appeal. I did not have time to upload the draft here before submission just to make representation before midnight.
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 7 Jul 2020 - 17:46
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QUOTE (sophie.turner @ Tue, 7 Jul 2020 - 17:56) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 7 Jul 2020 - 15:35) *
That will be rejected so what will you do then allow us to help you to appeal or pay the discount (if it is reoffered) ?


@Pastmybest, yes I would accept the help with the appeal. I did not have time to upload the draft here before submission just to make representation before midnight.


If you will appeal then it would not have mattered because you cannot go to adjudication and have the benefit of the discount, but really they would have rejected just about anything. Post up the rejection when you get it


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sophie.turner
post Tue, 7 Jul 2020 - 18:52
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 7 Jul 2020 - 18:46) *
QUOTE (sophie.turner @ Tue, 7 Jul 2020 - 17:56) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 7 Jul 2020 - 15:35) *
That will be rejected so what will you do then allow us to help you to appeal or pay the discount (if it is reoffered) ?


@Pastmybest, yes I would accept the help with the appeal. I did not have time to upload the draft here before submission just to make representation before midnight.


If you will appeal then it would not have mattered because you cannot go to adjudication and have the benefit of the discount, but really they would have rejected just about anything. Post up the rejection when you get it


Sure. Thank you.
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sophie.turner
post Fri, 11 Sep 2020 - 10:23
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Hi @cp8759 & @Pastmybest,

Following up on my initial informal representation. Since then it has been a while & a lot has happened.

Initial due to Covid lockdown and then having to quarantine, I was not at my registered address when the following correspondence arrived

1. Rejection of Informal Appeal. 14 day extension of discounted payment.
2. PCN full amount due letter
3. Penalty Charge Notice. Increase of ticket charge

So, I only returned to my address when the increase PCN charge letter came through. Even though I had provided them with my email address for correspondence. The telephone line was automated and not able to speak to anyone. So i had to sent an message via the York Council webpage and no email address explaining the situation. This time specifically asking them to give me correspondence via email as I would not be present at my registered address. Again, no email received and when I went to my address there was a letter. See Below

https://imgur.com/VEww3z7 - Page 1
https://imgur.com/wkLYFY6 - Page 2

I can upload all the other letters sent this evening. I think it is unfair that they say that I have missed my chance to appeal when I was legitimately following government advice during lockdown and was in quarantine due to being abroad. Is there any argument to be made on technical grounds that they did not communicate via email, even when asked?

I will provide upload of all letters this evening. Thank you in advance for your help and guidance.
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 11 Sep 2020 - 10:54
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We need to see all the documents


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cp8759
post Sat, 12 Sep 2020 - 10:55
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Scan all the letters and put them in a folder on google drive, dropbox or one drive.


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