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PCN Robin Hood Airport, Receive PCN while delivering parcels at airport.
nethkharabs
post Thu, 7 Jun 2018 - 12:21
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Hi,

As the registered keeper of a vehicle I received a PCN from VCS for an appararent parking infraction on their property. The vehicle in question was actually delivering parcels around the airport for Amazon and the photos show quite clearly the van parked half on the road and half on the pavement outside the company the parcel was being delivered too. This happened in August last year.

Following advice from this site and MSE I appealed online through the website quoted on the charge and sent proof that the vehicle was there for amazon deliveries so was parked at that spot for no more than 2 - 4 mins. I refused to name the driver.

A few emails were sent and the appeal denied and then the debt letters started. I tried to email both the airport and the owners and got no replay from either.

I have now received a letter before claim, stating if i do not pay by 17th June 2018 court proceedings will be initiated.

I have looked on this website for a suitable response and the more I read the more confused I become. Thats why I have now registered and am now asking for assitance on what letter to write to them and if there is any other people I could try at either the airport itself or The peel Group who I beleive own the roads around the airport. Robin Hood Airport customer services are not a good option.

For extra info, the only appeals process that was available to me at the time was at the website www.myparkingcharge.co.uk and it wasn't possible for me to get a print out of what my appeal actually said, but I did ask for the information that has been posted on this site and the MSE one requesting all photos and proof of their costs etc. I did subsequant to that find out there was another appeals option open to me but I don't think i was notified about that until it was too late.

Any assistance on this would be much appreciated and I'm sorry I'm having to ask because I know there is alot of information out there so I should be able to work this out on my own.

Thank you.



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post Thu, 7 Jun 2018 - 12:21
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 7 Jun 2018 - 13:39
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I imagine the LBC FAILS to meet the PAP for debt claims that came into force Ocotber last year?

If so thats the start. Theyre required to include certain documents, so make them do so. MSE forum newbies thread has a good ocuple of examples - just pick something recent.

You wil state that, as part of your defence, the vehicle was never parking, it was part of loading / unloading, which is a normal funciton of roadways. As this is a road accessible to the public, the Road Traffic Enactments apply, and if they wish to apply further restrictions these need to be clearly defined, and cannot - as they are prohibitive in nature - consytitutre a valid contractual offer

Your main issue is that Keeper liablity is not so much of an issue - CPS vs AJH Films likely makes you liable as a COMPANY *if* the claims foundations are proven. So is this against an INDIVIDUAL or a company?
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nethkharabs
post Thu, 7 Jun 2018 - 17:44
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The claim is against me as the registered owner of the vehicle. The fact that the driver was delivering parcels for amazon flex is just the reason they were on that land. No companies are involved.
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nethkharabs
post Thu, 7 Jun 2018 - 18:19
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Taking your advice I've looked on mse and found what i think could be an approriate letter to send do you think this would be ok ??




Vehicle Control Services Limited
FAO Litigation Dept
2 Europa Court
Sheffield Business Park
Sheffield
S9 1XE

Date

Your Ref: XXXXXXXXXXXXX
Dear Sirs,

I am in receipt of your Letter Before Claim of XXXXXXXXXX
Your letter contains insufficient detail of the claim and fails to provide copies of any evidence you rely on.
As you must know on the 1 October 2017 a new protocol is applicable to debt claims and because proceedings have not yet been issued this new protocol applies to your claim and must be complied with.
Your letter lacks specificity and breaches both the requirements of the previously applicable Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct (paragraphs 6(a) and 6©) and the new Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims (paragraphs 3.1(a)-(d), 5.1 and 5.2. Please treat this letter as a formal request for all of the documents / information that the protocol now requires you to provide. You must not issue proceedings without complying with that protocol. I reserve the right to draw any failure of your company to comply with this protocol to the attention of the court and to ask the court to stay the claim and order your company to comply with its pre-action obligations, and when costs come to be considered.
As a litigation dept you must surely be familiar with the requirements of both the Practice Direction applicable pre-1 October and the Protocol which applies thereafter (and your company, as a serial litigator of small claims, should be aware of them). As you must know, the Practice Direction and Protocol bind all potential litigants, whatever the size or type of the claim. Its express purpose is to assist parties in understanding the claim and their respective positions in relation to it, to enable parties to take stock of their positions and to negotiate a settlement, or at least narrow the issues, without incurring the costs of court proceedings or using up valuable court time. It is astounding that a litigation dept are sending a consumer a vague and unevidenced 'Letter before Claim' in complete ignorance of the pre-existing Practice Direction and the new Protocol.
Nobody, including your company, is immune from the requirements and obligations of the Practice Direction and now the Protocol.
As requested in my originaI online appeal dated back in Sept 17 I now require your client to comply with its obligations by sending me the following information/documents:

1. an explanation of the cause of action
2. whether they are pursuing me as driver or keeper
3. whether they are relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012
4. what the details of the claim are; where it is claimed the vehicle was parked, for how long, how the monies being claimed arose and have been calculated
5. Is the claim for a contractual breach? If so, what is the date of the agreement? The names of the parties to it and provide to me a copy of that contract.
6. Is the claim for trespass? If so, provide details.
7. Provide me a copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim, as required by the IPC code of practice section B, clause 1.1 !!!8220;establishing yourself as the creditor!!!8221;
8. a plan showing where any signs were displayed
9. details of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of font, height at which displayed)
10. Provide details of the original charge, and detail any interest and administrative or other charges added
11. Provide a copy of the Information Sheet and the Reply Form.

If you company does not provide me with this information then I put you on notice that I will be relying on the cases of Webb Resolutions Ltd v Waller Needham & Green [2012] EWHC 3529 (Ch), Daejan Investments Limited v The Park West Club Limited (Part 20) !!!8211; Buxton Associates [2003] EWHC 2872, Charles Church Developments Ltd v Stent Foundations Limited & Peter Dann Limited [2007] EWHC 855 in asking the court to impose sanctions on your company and to order a stay of the proceedings, pursuant to paragraphs 13 ,15(b) and © and 16 of the Practice Direction, as referred to in paragraph 7.2 of the Protocol.
Until your company has complied with its obligations and provided this information, I am unable to respond properly to the alleged claim and to consider my position in relation to it, and it is entirely premature (and a waste of costs and court time) for your company to issue proceedings. Should your client do so, then I will seek an immediate stay pursuant to paragraph 15(b) of the Practice Direction and an order that this information is provided.

Yours faithfully
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 07:19
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OK, you cannot be the reg. owner. No such thing. Reg keeper, yes

Was the driver working on behalf of the business? Under instruction? or was this an individual using the vehicle to work for ANOTHER company? Your answer so far does NOT illuminate as to whether principal / agent rules would apply, and this is fairly key.
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ostell
post Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 07:25
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If you were renting the vehicle out thena different portion of POFA applies, one where you will be providing details of the KEEPER at the time to remove any liability from yourself.
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couchiedemon
post Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 10:49
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Is relevant Land an issue - I think there are byelaws in place at RHA?
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 10:57
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QUOTE (couchiedemon @ Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 11:49) *
Is relevant Land an issue - I think there are byelaws in place at RHA?

Tha only matters for keeper liability
If there was a principal agent relationship involved here then that can be bypassed, hence my question.
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nethkharabs
post Fri, 8 Jun 2018 - 23:54
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Ok I am the registered keeper of the vehicle, no I was not renting out the vehicle and no the vehicle was not being used on behalf of any company. I haven't identified the driver to VCS but I have acknowledged that I am the registered keeper of the vehicle. The way amaxon flex works is you basically accept a slot of time, usually around 4 hours, on a given day. Go to their depot pick up some parcels and use their app to deliver those parcels. The route is already done for you and you just follow the satnav on the app. Deliver the parcel to whoever and then go on your way. You are basically working for yourself. However, there are occasions when I cannot do the route and have had a friend or other flex driver do the route for me, and vice versa. This isn't a regular thing, this is something you can do in your spare time to pick up a bit of extra cash. It's not a job in the real sense of the word, you aren't an employee of amazon nor are you working for or as a company.

I hope this makes things a little clearer. biggrin.gif

As a side note, not sure if this is even relevant, but I can actually prove the vehicle was being used for amazon deliveries at the time of the supposed infraction as I have proof of payment covering the time and date in question. I can say with 100% certainty that the the driver was not parked there for any longer than 5 mins max, an that's probably an over estimation.

This post has been edited by nethkharabs: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 00:09
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nigelbb
post Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 05:10
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QUOTE (nethkharabs @ Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 00:54) *
Ok I am the registered keeper of the vehicle, no I was not renting out the vehicle and no the vehicle was not being used on behalf of any company. I haven't identified the driver to VCS but I have acknowledged that I am the registered keeper of the vehicle. The way amaxon flex works is you basically accept a slot of time, usually around 4 hours, on a given day. Go to their depot pick up some parcels and use their app to deliver those parcels. The route is already done for you and you just follow the satnav on the app. Deliver the parcel to whoever and then go on your way. You are basically working for yourself. However, there are occasions when I cannot do the route and have had a friend or other flex driver do the route for me, and vice versa.

Was the driver paid by Amazon or by you for doing the deliveries?


--------------------
British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf
Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012
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nethkharabs
post Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 09:26
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QUOTE (nigelbb @ Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 06:10) *
QUOTE (nethkharabs @ Sat, 9 Jun 2018 - 00:54) *
Ok I am the registered keeper of the vehicle, no I was not renting out the vehicle and no the vehicle was not being used on behalf of any company. I haven't identified the driver to VCS but I have acknowledged that I am the registered keeper of the vehicle. The way amaxon flex works is you basically accept a slot of time, usually around 4 hours, on a given day. Go to their depot pick up some parcels and use their app to deliver those parcels. The route is already done for you and you just follow the satnav on the app. Deliver the parcel to whoever and then go on your way. You are basically working for yourself. However, there are occasions when I cannot do the route and have had a friend or other flex driver do the route for me, and vice versa.

Was the driver paid by Amazon or by you for doing the deliveries?


I was paid by Amazon as it was my route and I kept the money. Sometimes when you swap routes, it's just that a straight swap. So I might have got paid for this particular route and I kept the money, because I had done a route for a driver on a different day when they kept that money.

Does anyone know who to contact at Robin Hood Airport to try to get this quashed and possibly a link to a successful letter of complaint that I could use as a template. I have looked through the road traffic regulation act of 1984 and cannot find anything useful.

This post has been edited by nethkharabs: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 08:24
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nethkharabs
post Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 10:44
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I have changed the initial letter slightly and would appreciate someone letting em know if this is ok to send since I'm running out of time to do this. Thank you for any assitance.



To whom it may concern,


Your Ref: XXXXXXXXXXX
Vehicle Registration: XXXXXXXXXX


To whom it may concern,


I am acknowledging receipt of your Letter Before Claim of 18/05/2018.

I do not have access to legal representation other than online sources and during my research I have come across the Practice Direction on Pre-action Conduct, and it has to be said that the address given by yourselves was a different one. Also the fact that the different web address was not actually part of the letter but in the very last sentence of annex 1 information sheet is not exactly making it obvious.

However, as a lay person and having no knowledge of court proceedings before your LBC, I have conducted my own research and found that even though you did tell me about the Practice direction it was the wrong address and in a place where it could easily be missed. Also since you obviously know about the directive, you also know that you are required to carry out all the steps before starting court proceedings. This you have not done.

Your letter contains insufficient detail of the claim and fails to provide copies of any evidence you rely on.

As you must know on the 1 October 2017 a new protocol is applicable to debt claims and because proceedings have not yet been issued this new protocol applies to your claim and must be complied with.

Your letter lacks specificity and breaches both the requirements of the previously applicable Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct (paragraphs 6(a) and 6©) and the new Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims (paragraphs 3.1(a)-(d), 5.1 and 5.2. Please treat this letter as a formal request for all of the documents / information that the protocol now requires you to provide. You must not issue proceedings without complying with that protocol. I reserve the right to draw any failure of your company to comply with this protocol to the attention of the court and to ask the court to stay the claim and order your company to comply with its pre-action obligations, and when costs come to be considered.

As a litigation dept you must surely be familiar with the requirements of both the Practice Direction applicable pre-1 October and the Protocol which applies thereafter (and your company, as a serial litigator of small claims, should be aware of them).

As you must know, the Practice Direction and Protocol bind all potential litigants, whatever the size or type of the claim. Its express purpose is to assist parties in understanding the claim and their respective positions in relation to it, to enable parties to take stock of their positions and to negotiate a settlement, or at least narrow the issues, without incurring the costs of court proceedings or using up valuable court time. It is astounding that a litigation dept are sending a consumer a vague and unevidenced 'Letter before Claim' in complete ignorance of the pre-existing Practice Direction and the new Protocol.

Nobody, including your company, is immune from the requirements and obligations of the Practice Direction and now the Protocol.
As requested in my originaI online appeal dated back in Sept 17 I now require your client to comply with its obligations by sending me the following information/documents:

1. an explanation of the cause of action
2. whether they are pursuing me as driver or keeper
3. whether they are relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012
4. what the details of the claim are; where it is claimed the vehicle was parked, for how long, how the monies being claimed arose and have been calculated
5. Is the claim for a contractual breach? If so, what is the date of the agreement? The names of the parties to it and provide to me a copy of that contract.
6. Is the claim for trespass? If so, provide details.
7. Provide me a copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim, as required by the IPC code of practice section B, clause 1.1 !!!8220;establishing yourself as the creditor!!!8221;
8. a plan showing where any signs were displayed
9. details of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of font, height at which displayed)
10. Provide details of the original charge, and detail any interest and administrative or other charges added
11. Provide a copy of the Information Sheet and the Reply Form.

If you company does not provide me with this information then I put you on notice that I will be relying on the cases of Webb Resolutions Ltd v Waller Needham & Green [2012] EWHC 3529 (Ch), Daejan Investments Limited v The Park West Club Limited (Part 20) !!!8211; Buxton Associates [2003] EWHC 2872, Charles Church Developments Ltd v Stent Foundations Limited & Peter Dann Limited [2007] EWHC 855 in asking the court to impose sanctions on your company and to order a stay of the proceedings, pursuant to paragraphs 13 ,15(b) and © and 16 of the Practice Direction, as referred to in paragraph 7.2 of the Protocol.

Until your company has complied with its obligations and provided this information, I am unable to respond properly to the alleged claim and to consider my position in relation to it, and it is entirely premature (and a waste of costs and court time) for your company to issue proceedings. Should your client do so, then I will seek an immediate stay pursuant to paragraph 15(b) of the Practice Direction and an order that this information is provided.

Yours faithfully
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 11 Jun 2018 - 08:23
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OK, so in essence it was a favour - not an employeee / employer relationship.
I dont like the two sentences you added.
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nethkharabs
post Mon, 11 Jun 2018 - 13:35
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ok so take those 2 sentances out and send as is then. They were put in because some advice on MSE is write as though you're writing to the judge and write in your own words. There was a sample letter and I took that advice.

However, if you don't think it's a good idea I'll remove them and send the letter as is.

Thank you for your advice and I'll let you know what happens.
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nethkharabs
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 20:26
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update 11/08/18

I received a letter today from VCS as follows

Dear Sir/Madam

RE: Intention to start court proceedings.

We write regarding the above matter.

I am disappointed to note that we have not reached an amicable agreement in respect of our "Letter before Claim" despite our engagement in open correspondence. As
such, in accordance with the Pre Action Protocol ["for debt claims"] clause 8.2 we are giving you 14 days notice of our intention to start court proceedings.

Yours faithfully

etc etc.

I have received nothing from them since i sent them my reply to them on the 12th June 2018. I sent them letter registered delivery and an email with a copy of the letter attached so I was covered both ways.

My letter to them in response to their letter before claim is set out in the previous posts to this one ignoring the first 2 paragraphs. I also added that I wanted copies of my online appeals that I sent. I sent them the letters on the 12th of June and the cut of date was the 18th of June.

It has been approxmately 2 months since I sent them.

Can you please advise me on how to reply to this new letter I have 14 days.

Thank you for your advice.







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Redivi
post Sat, 11 Aug 2018 - 23:34
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Dear Sir

Ref ****

I have received your letter dated **** stating that we have not reached an amicable agreement despite your engagement in open correspondence.

I note that your engagement in open correspondence has not included providing the information that I requested two months ago in response to your Letter Before Claim
Neither has it even included the courtesy of an acknowledgement of my letter that was sent by Recorded Delivery with a copy by email

Please address your failure to comply with Para 8.1 of the Protocol before you quote 8.2

Yours Faithfully

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nethkharabs
post Wed, 15 Aug 2018 - 13:19
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Ty vm for this, I have again sent the letter via email and recorded delivery. I will update as and when I get a reply from them. Your assistance is very much appreciated.
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cabbyman
post Wed, 15 Aug 2018 - 13:21
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NEVER send by recorded, or any other signed for, delivery. They can refuse to accept it and all you have is evidence of non-delivery. Use first class post with a certificate of posting from the post office. Service is presumed in 2 working days and it is up to them to rebut that presumption.


--------------------
Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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nethkharabs
post Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 11:20
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Hi all,

Just received this in the mail this morning. I dont know how to reply, please help as I'm now getting really concerned now about this issue.

Attached File  IMG_20180908_0002.pdf ( 550.15K ) Number of downloads: 214


How do I respond to this?? Also i'm not sure if the upload has worked I'm not 100% at how you upload things.

Thank you for any help.

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cabbyman
post Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 11:47
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You need to go online to acknowledge the claim; this gets you more time to prepare your defence.

DO NOT contest jurisdiction. DO NOT put ANYTHING in the defence box; not even a full stop.

Others will be along shortly to guide you further.


--------------------
Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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