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Multiple PCNs for parking in flat car park
HenryHippo
post Sun, 2 Jul 2017 - 19:58
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At the end of 2016 the block of flats I live in introduced parking permits and PCNs.

I didn't actually get a permit through the post, but most people did in the block. Consequently the car I own which was parked in the car park had 7 PCNs within a 4 week period and the total invoice is £1,160

I ignored the letters that came in the post, but now they have sent me the attached letters for a not insubstantial amount

Does the fact that I didn't get a permit through the post before they enforced the tickets count as a defence? Eventually they sent me one by recorded delivery at which point I had had several tickets.

Quite miffed to be PCNd in my own home.








This post has been edited by HenryHippo: Sun, 2 Jul 2017 - 19:59
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post Sun, 2 Jul 2017 - 19:58
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HenryHippo
post Tue, 12 Sep 2017 - 20:25
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QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Mon, 11 Sep 2017 - 23:19) *
Show them the relevant parts of the lease and attach a covering letter than robustly tells them they can't win, their case is without merit, and encourages them to discontinue the claim (do not remind them about your counterclaim!).

And I am worried that you have been posting here for 2 months and haven't yet read bargepole's summary of 'WHAT HAPPENS WHEN' in the NEWBIES thread on MSE - posters should read it and you'd then know that you have to file all your evidence at Witness Statement stage, weeks before the hearing date. Don't miss these vital facts and stages; you will also have to file a WS that supports your counter-claim too.

I agree with the others. Just as it is their duty to be open with documents you might ask for, you must show them the same courtesy to attempt to resolve the dispute. And if their defence to the counter-claim was received 3 weeks after you counter-claimed, be ready to raise that at Witness Statement stage because no Judge is going to do this for you.


Do you mean this thread? http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5546325

I have used this one too http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4816822

I have read it before, but doesn't hurt to read it again in this instance

I will do as you suggest and will not mention the counterclaim

This post has been edited by HenryHippo: Tue, 12 Sep 2017 - 20:27
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Eljayjay
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 04:27
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Based on what you say in posts #5 and #100, it seems that you have a right to park under your lease in an allocated parking space which does not, in fact, exist. Put another way, it seems that you do not have any parking rights under your lease.

Is that why you are reluctant to divulge the lease's contents to the claimant? If it is, I can understand your predicament.

Frankly, I think you need to sort this out with the lessor, probably through your own solicitor. As things stand, you appear to have not only the current problem with the PPC but also a potential problem if/when you come to sell the flat.

By all means wait for further comments from SRM, etc..
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hexaflexagon
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 09:06
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QUOTE (Eljayjay @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 05:27) *
Based on what you say in posts #5 and #100, it seems that you have a right to park under your lease in an allocated parking space which does not, in fact, exist. Put another way, it seems that you do not have any parking rights under your lease.

Is that why you are reluctant to divulge the lease's contents to the claimant? If it is, I can understand your predicament.

Frankly, I think you need to sort this out with the lessor, probably through your own solicitor. As things stand, you appear to have not only the current problem with the PPC but also a potential problem if/when you come to sell the flat.

By all means wait for further comments from SRM, etc..


Have you taken the obvious step, given that the right to park is key to any defence of asking the landlord to confirm in writing which is your allocated parking space (that's how the lease describes it) and send you a plan indicating the location.
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ostell
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 09:36
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Or spend £3 at the land registry to get a copy of the map showing the demised land.
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Eljayjay
post Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 12:30
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They seem like wise words from hexaflexagon and ostell. Use eservices.landregistry.gov.uk.
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HenryHippo
post Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 09:54
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QUOTE (hexaflexagon @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 10:06) *
QUOTE (Eljayjay @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 05:27) *
Based on what you say in posts #5 and #100, it seems that you have a right to park under your lease in an allocated parking space which does not, in fact, exist. Put another way, it seems that you do not have any parking rights under your lease.

Is that why you are reluctant to divulge the lease's contents to the claimant? If it is, I can understand your predicament.

Frankly, I think you need to sort this out with the lessor, probably through your own solicitor. As things stand, you appear to have not only the current problem with the PPC but also a potential problem if/when you come to sell the flat.

By all means wait for further comments from SRM, etc..


Have you taken the obvious step, given that the right to park is key to any defence of asking the landlord to confirm in writing which is your allocated parking space (that's how the lease describes it) and send you a plan indicating the location.


The lease is a little ambiguous yes. I took "parking space" to mean the communal space rather than a dedicated individual space. Do you see what I mean?

I am the owner of my flat, so by landlord you mean the managing agents?

QUOTE (ostell @ Wed, 13 Sep 2017 - 10:36) *
Or spend £3 at the land registry to get a copy of the map showing the demised land.


If I pay the land registry £3 then they will tell me if the parking area is mine to use or if it belongs to the managing company?

This post has been edited by HenryHippo: Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 09:55
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hexaflexagon
post Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 10:04
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QUOTE (HenryHippo @ Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 10:54) *
I am the owner of my flat, so by landlord you mean the managing agents?


But we're not talking about the status of the flat we're talking about the land on which you park. I understand from all that's been said that your right to park has been assigned under a lease.

So where in post # 103 I said Landlord substitute Leaseholder.
The leaseholder is unlikely to be the Managing agent although you could usefully start by asking them to obtain the details from the Leaseholder - that's presumably why the word 'managing' in 'Managing Agent' is there.
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Eljayjay
post Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 10:29
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In many (perhaps most) leases for flats, the freeholder is known as the "Landlord" and the leaseholder is known as the "Tenant". An "allocated parking space" normally refers to a single space for use by a single vehicle allocated to a leaseholder. The space is usually shown on a plan with all other parking spaces but distinguished from the others by it's best boundary being marked in a different colour. From memory, your quotation from the lease in post #5 fits this description to a tee.

Is the lease in your possession signed or was it simply a draft? It sounds to me as though it may have been the latter. The proper signed version may well be in a file held by the solicitor who handled the purchase for you. You need to establish the true situation - eservices.landregistry.gov.uk is a good place to start.
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ostell
post Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 10:37
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So you go onto the the land registry site and put in your full address and request the map. The map will show the property and any other land that goes with it outlined in red.

But if you have the lease then you should also have, within that lease, a map showing the property that is the subject of the lease.

This post has been edited by ostell: Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 10:39
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HenryHippo
post Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 12:26
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QUOTE (hexaflexagon @ Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 11:04) *
QUOTE (HenryHippo @ Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 10:54) *
I am the owner of my flat, so by landlord you mean the managing agents?


But we're not talking about the status of the flat we're talking about the land on which you park. I understand from all that's been said that your right to park has been assigned under a lease.

So where in post # 103 I said Landlord substitute Leaseholder.
The leaseholder is unlikely to be the Managing agent although you could usefully start by asking them to obtain the details from the Leaseholder - that's presumably why the word 'managing' in 'Managing Agent' is there.


OK I can do that.

Write to the managing agents asking them

"I would like to understand more details of my write to park in the communal car park. My lease makes reference to an "allocated parking space as shown in the diagram" but the diagram does not show one. Can you please ask the leaseholder where my allocated parking spot is?"

Does that sound correct?

QUOTE (Eljayjay @ Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 11:29) *
In many (perhaps most) leases for flats, the freeholder is known as the "Landlord" and the leaseholder is known as the "Tenant". An "allocated parking space" normally refers to a single space for use by a single vehicle allocated to a leaseholder. The space is usually shown on a plan with all other parking spaces but distinguished from the others by it's best boundary being marked in a different colour. From memory, your quotation from the lease in post #5 fits this description to a tee.

Is the lease in your possession signed or was it simply a draft? It sounds to me as though it may have been the latter. The proper signed version may well be in a file held by the solicitor who handled the purchase for you. You need to establish the true situation - eservices.landregistry.gov.uk is a good place to start.


Been on the landregistry site but getting an error from this postcode. Seems to work on houses but not flats

I just have a draft lease.

Looking at Plan 1 in the lease now. The block of flats and the car park are all shaded in brown (see link below). The car was parked in the blue circle

The shaded area is the demised area, so that looks to be a strong defense to me. What do you think?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/2534xoxpfyiawpz/l...20snip.PNG?dl=0
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hexaflexagon
post Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 12:46
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QUOTE (HenryHippo @ Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 13:26) *
"I would like to understand more details of my write to park in the communal car park. My lease makes reference to an "allocated parking space as shown in the diagram" but the diagram does not show one. Can you please ask the leaseholder where my allocated parking spot is?"

Does that sound correct?


More or less apart from a spelling mistake.

I would like to understand more details of my right to park in the communal car park.
My lease makes reference to an "allocated parking space as shown in the diagram" but the diagram does not show such a space. Would you please ask the leaseholder to let me have a certified copy of the plan that shows exactly where my allocated parking space is located? This is required as evidence in a legal matter I am involved with.
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HenryHippo
post Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 13:11
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QUOTE (hexaflexagon @ Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 13:46) *
QUOTE (HenryHippo @ Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 13:26) *
"I would like to understand more details of my write to park in the communal car park. My lease makes reference to an "allocated parking space as shown in the diagram" but the diagram does not show one. Can you please ask the leaseholder where my allocated parking spot is?"

Does that sound correct?


More or less apart from a spelling mistake.

I would like to understand more details of my right to park in the communal car park.
My lease makes reference to an "allocated parking space as shown in the diagram" but the diagram does not show such a space. Would you please ask the leaseholder to let me have a certified copy of the plan that shows exactly where my allocated parking space is located? This is required as evidence in a legal matter I am involved with.


Cheers
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HenryHippo
post Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 17:53
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Will hold off on sending any leases to SCS until I hear back from the leaseholder
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SchoolRunMum
post Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 22:47
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This is confusing to me. As a flat owner, IMHO you are the leaseholder and the overall site/building owner is the freeholder.
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Eljayjay
post Fri, 15 Sep 2017 - 00:11
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In post #5, you mentioned that your lease described your parking space as being "The parking space shown on the Plan 1 being part of the Parking Spaces and numbered with the same plot number as the Demised Premises or such other parking space as the lessor may allocate from time to time if it becomes reasonably necessary to do so".

Are the parking spaces numbered? Is your flat number the same as the original plot number? If the answer to both of these questions is "yes" and the lessor has not informed you of the necessity to allocate another parking space, then you should know which parking space belongs to you. If you are still in any doubt, ask the solicitor who acted for you when purchasing the flat for a copy of the signed lease and its attachments. My kids' solicitor emailed their lease, etc. to them in a very similar situation at no charge within hours of the request being made.
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HenryHippo
post Fri, 15 Sep 2017 - 11:42
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QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 23:47) *
This is confusing to me. As a flat owner, IMHO you are the leaseholder and the overall site/building owner is the freeholder.


Sorry, what is confusing exactly? The wording of the lease or my query to the managing agents?

Do you think I need to be worried by the recent turn of events? Like I say, I am holding fire on sending the lease until I get a reply

QUOTE (Eljayjay @ Fri, 15 Sep 2017 - 01:11) *
In post #5, you mentioned that your lease described your parking space as being "The parking space shown on the Plan 1 being part of the Parking Spaces and numbered with the same plot number as the Demised Premises or such other parking space as the lessor may allocate from time to time if it becomes reasonably necessary to do so".

Are the parking spaces numbered? Is your flat number the same as the original plot number? If the answer to both of these questions is "yes" and the lessor has not informed you of the necessity to allocate another parking space, then you should know which parking space belongs to you. If you are still in any doubt, ask the solicitor who acted for you when purchasing the flat for a copy of the signed lease and its attachments. My kids' solicitor emailed their lease, etc. to them in a very similar situation at no charge within hours of the request being made.


No numbers on the spaces, complete free for all

No change to my flat number and plot number

Have got in touch with my solicitor.. thanks
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SchoolRunMum
post Fri, 15 Sep 2017 - 17:46
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QUOTE (HenryHippo @ Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 18:53) *
Will hold off on sending any leases to SCS until I hear back from the leaseholder


This is what's confusing me. You are the leasehold title owner of the flat. The overall landowner of flats is the freeholder.
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HenryHippo
post Fri, 15 Sep 2017 - 21:31
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QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Fri, 15 Sep 2017 - 18:46) *
QUOTE (HenryHippo @ Thu, 14 Sep 2017 - 18:53) *
Will hold off on sending any leases to SCS until I hear back from the leaseholder


This is what's confusing me. You are the leasehold title owner of the flat. The overall landowner of flats is the freeholder.


Well my lease doesn't actually mention the landowner as a "leaseholder". I think this discussion has confused things

"Allocated Parking Space: The Parking Space shown on the Plan 1 being part of the Parking Spaces and numbered with the same plot number as the Demised Premises or such other parking space as the Lessor may allocate in writing from time to time if it becomes reasonably necessary to do so"

Moving to Plan 1 there is no singular space shown, although the entire car park is highlighted

There is also nothing in the lease mentioning I require a parking permit, so does the tortious interference claim still stand?

Do you think I should send the lease to SCS now, or wait?
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whjohnson
post Fri, 15 Sep 2017 - 22:32
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OK!

Let's try another tack.

Do you own the flat as a leaseholder or a freeholder?

If leaseholder only, who di you lease from?
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Eljayjay
post Sat, 16 Sep 2017 - 01:00
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In post #110, HenryHippo says "I just have a draft lease".

It seems to me that HenryHippo needs to get hold of the proper engrossed version of the lease which the parties to it actually signed. When he has that, he needs to tell us who the parties are and how they are described. From what he has told us about the definition of Allocated Parking Space, the owner of the freehold is almost certainly known as the "Lessor" in the lease. It does, therefore, seem very likely that HenryHippo himself is the leasehold owner and is known as the "Lessee" in the lease. This is, however, mere speculation on my part which HenryHippo needs to confirm or correct once he has a copy of the signed lease.

It also seems to me that, at the same time, HenryHippo needs to go through the lease with a fine toothed comb and collate all references to parking, quiet enjoyment and powers of amendment which it contains.

In short, HenryHippo's urgent first priority is to acquire knowledge and understanding of what his lease actually says. It is only then that he should share that knowledge and understanding with the claimant.

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