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Single Justice procedure notice - please help, Single Justice procedure notice - please help
Unlucky1
post Sat, 9 Feb 2019 - 18:16
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Hi,

Please could somebody help me.

I received a nip outside of the 14 day requirement a few months back. I replied with a standard letter informing them of this along with the nip.

Following this they have sent me a single justice procedure notice asking me to plea guilty/not guilty to the original speeding offence as well as failing to give information relating to the driver.

It turns out that they sent the original nip to my old address (still registered with DVLA) within the 14 days and then sent it on to me outside of that.

I am not sure what to do at this point. I did respond to them within the given time but did not cpmplete the driver details, I sent them a letter instead. Since I hadnt heard anything for 2 months I thought that was the end of it.

I'm now worried this is going to cost a while lot more. I would have paid if I had known the address was the reason for delay on the first place.

I would be grateful for some advice on this.
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post Sat, 9 Feb 2019 - 18:16
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BaggieBoy
post Sat, 9 Feb 2019 - 18:31
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Your best course of action is plead not guilty to both charges and wait for a court date. Then on the day of of the trial get there early and find some one prosecution team. Offer to plead guilty to the speeding if they drop the failing to give information charge, this will almost certainly be agreed.



If you had taken advice here at the time it's pretty sure all this could have been avoided, NIPs outside the 14 days usually have a valid reason, such as the V5C not being updated when moving house. Regardless of the validity of the NIP, the name of the driver must be given up.
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666
post Sat, 9 Feb 2019 - 18:33
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You should plead NOT guilty to both. You will then be summonsed to court, where you can normally do a deal with the prosecutor who will almost certainly drop the FTF charge if you plead guilty to the original speeding charge. Search the forum for details, or wait for other contributions.

For future reference, even if the NIP had been late the 14-day rule does not apply to the s172 request for driver details, which remains valid. You should supply driver details, and query the NIP separately.

Baggie Boy types faster than me!

This post has been edited by 666: Sat, 9 Feb 2019 - 18:34
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Unlucky1
post Sat, 9 Feb 2019 - 22:04
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Thank you both for your advice and quick responses.

I'm a little confused as to how I'm supposed to go about making a deal and what if they don't agree to this? I would rather avoid this as I am guilty..(although I wouldn't class myself as guilty for not completing the form, I just thought it unnecessary given the late nip)

Could you give me a best case and worst case scenario if I pleaded guilty out of court compared to your advice?

Many thanks
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Jlc
post Sat, 9 Feb 2019 - 22:25
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Even if the NIP was late the s172 is very much live an must be responded to. It seems you have failed to do this and are now in damage limitation mode.

You must not plead guilty to the speeding until you have confirmed the failing to furnish charge is dropped.

Many courts process this 'plea bargain' as routine but don't bank on it.

You must for the moment maintain a not guilty plea. Alternatively, you can simply ask for the SJP to be heard in court instead.

On the day, you should arrive early and try and find the prosecutor and offer to plead guilty to the speeding if they drop the more serious charge.

Actually, I've just realised you haven't said what the underlying offence was - I’m presuming speeding?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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BaggieBoy
post Sat, 9 Feb 2019 - 22:27
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 9 Feb 2019 - 22:25) *
Actually, I've just realised you haven't said what the underlying offence was - I’m presuming speeding?


They did actually in the OP:

QUOTE
Following this they have sent me a single justice procedure notice asking me to plea guilty/not guilty to the original speeding offence
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Jlc
post Sat, 9 Feb 2019 - 22:31
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Aha - see it now. Ok, what's the speed/limit?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Logician
post Sun, 10 Feb 2019 - 11:02
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QUOTE (Unlucky1 @ Sat, 9 Feb 2019 - 22:04) *
Thank you both for your advice and quick responses. I'm a little confused as to how I'm supposed to go about making a deal and what if they don't agree to this? I would rather avoid this as I am guilty..(although I wouldn't class myself as guilty for not completing the form, I just thought it unnecessary given the late nip) Could you give me a best case and worst case scenario if I pleaded guilty out of court compared to your advice? Many thanks


Best case scenario if you plead guilty out of court is that the s.172 is dropped and you are sentenced on the speeding charge by the single justice, worst case is that the s.172 is not dropped, instead your guilty plea is accepted and you get 6 points and a large fine, discounted for your guilty plea, and you are also sentenced for the speeding and get another 3 points. The worst case has happened, so do you want to risk it or take advice?

There is nothing wrong with initially indicating a not guilty plea and then changing your plea when you get to court, it happens in many cases and in your particular situation it is a well tried procedure, which goes as follows: Provided the speeding offence would attract less than 6 points on its own, you should plead Not Guilty to both offences, and then attend court on the date set, [despite a statement on the letter that you do not need to do so]. As there is no evidence as to who was driving your car, since you have not told them, there can be no conviction for the speeding unless you plead guilty. Get to court early and ask one of the ushers (people scurrying about with clipboards and possibly gowns getting things organised) to point out to you the prosecutor who will be dealing with traffic matters. Say to him/her that you will plead guilty to the speeding if they will drop the s.172. We have never heard of prosecutors refusing to do this, they prefer to get a conviction for the underlying offence, and regard the two offences as effectively alternative offences. If you do not manage to speak to the prosecutor beforehand, you should still be able to do the deal in the courtroom. It is very difficult to do this in advance of the court hearing as you would have trouble speaking to the right person






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andy_foster
post Sun, 10 Feb 2019 - 11:57
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QUOTE (Unlucky1 @ Sat, 9 Feb 2019 - 18:16) *
I am not sure what to do at this point. I did respond to them within the given time but did not cpmplete the driver details, I sent them a letter instead. Since I hadnt heard anything for 2 months I thought that was the end of it.


Just to be clear, as a matter of law it does not matter whether you used their form or sent a letter, what matters is whether you provided the required information. Subject to any applicable statutory defence to the s. 172 charge (and there isn't one in your case), failing to provide the required information within the 28 days constitutes the offence - merely responding without providing the information is neither here nor there (unless they choose to engage in communication with you and allow extra time, which they apparently didn't).

Please clarify whether you admitted to being the driver in the letter - your original post suggests not, but there is a degree of ambiguity.

N.B. For future reference, the failure to serve a NIP on the driver or RK within the 14 days is only a defence to the original speeding offence, not to any subsequent s. 172 offence.

QUOTE
I'm now worried this is going to cost a while lot more. I would have paid if I had known the address was the reason for delay on the first place.


The immediate issue is not the slightly nebulous concept of paying the fine, but that you seemingly did not provide the information required under s. 172. From what you have told us, it seems likely that you are slam dunk guilty of this. The saving grace is that most prosecutors will happily drop the s. 172 charge if you agree to plead guilty to the speeding offence, if you ask them nicely. There is no set procedure for this, other than that we always say that you should maintain a not guilty plea to both charges until you have had a chance to ask the prosecutor if he will drop the s. 172 - in some cases the s. 172 is dropped if you plead guilty to the speeding, in others, you could plead guilty to the speeding and then be tried for the s. 172 - resulting in 9 points instead of 6 in the hope of only getting 3.


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Unlucky1
post Sun, 10 Feb 2019 - 12:44
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Thanks again for the advice.

To clarify on the couple of questions asked.

1.I did not disclose who the driver was in my letter regarding the notice period.
2.The speed was 48 in a 30.

Does this make any difference to the advice above?
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BaggieBoy
post Sun, 10 Feb 2019 - 12:53
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None whatsoever. However that speed/limit would have got a fixed penalty or £100 and 3 points, now at court you are looking at 6 points, an income related fine plus costs.
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The Rookie
post Sun, 10 Feb 2019 - 13:34
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No, had you actually complied with your legal requirement and not commited the criminal offence of failing to furnish the driver ID it would have been different.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Jlc
post Sun, 10 Feb 2019 - 13:57
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QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Sun, 10 Feb 2019 - 12:53) *
now at court you are looking at 6 points, an income related fine plus costs.

Guidelines are 4-6 points, probably 5 or 6 as near the top of the band B scale.

A fine of around 66% weekly earnings, costs of £85 and surcharge of 10% of the fine (min £30).


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Unlucky1
post Sun, 10 Feb 2019 - 15:41
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Thanks for the update and giving me an idea of potential outcomes.

I feel stupid now for not completing that form I just expected I would get a letter back from them.

Please forgive my ignorance but I'm struggling to understand why it best to plead not guilty and attend court. In both cases it has been said they may agree to drop the s.172 if I plead guilty now or outside the court rooms but they also might not. However there is a 33% reduction if I plead guilty now...

Also, if I plead guilty now how likely are the magistrates to sympathise with my 'mitigating circumstances' of not fully understanding the procedure and expecting some further correspondence in reply to my letter? And are they more or less likely to sympathise if I go to court having pleaded not guilty?

I would rather not attend court and change my plea.

Sorry for all the questions
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peterguk
post Sun, 10 Feb 2019 - 16:23
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QUOTE (Unlucky1 @ Sun, 10 Feb 2019 - 15:41) *
if I plead guilty now how likely are the magistrates to sympathise with my 'mitigating circumstances' of not fully understanding the procedure and expecting some further correspondence in reply to my letter?


IMHO, very unlikely.

You failed to follow the clear and simple instructions on the S.172 request. Furthermore, IIRC, the notice warns that failure to do so may result in prosecution.

I'm assuming English is your primary language?

This post has been edited by peterguk: Sun, 10 Feb 2019 - 16:33


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Jlc
post Sun, 10 Feb 2019 - 16:27
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You cannot plead not guilty and not attend. Indeed, you may tot and face a 6 months ban.

The only effective way to deal with this is as explained.

You’ll still get your 33% discount if you change your plea before trial.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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andy_foster
post Sun, 10 Feb 2019 - 17:46
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The discount for an early guilty plea is only against the fine, not the points.
You could plead guilty to the speeding and not guilty to the s. 172, and it is possible that the s. 172 will simply be dropped. However, it is also possible that it won't.

If you are determined top avoid going to court, you cold plead guilty to the s. 172 and not guilty to the speeding. There is apparently no evidence that you were driving, so it ought not to be possible to convict you if you plead not guilty, even if you don't attend the hearing.


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Some people think that I make them feel stupid. To be fair, they deserve most of the credit.
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The Rookie
post Sun, 10 Feb 2019 - 17:50
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However the MS90 endorsement gets loaded heavily by insurers, so you may want to consider if your aversion to going to court is worth that much extra.....


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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Logician
post Sun, 10 Feb 2019 - 18:01
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QUOTE (Unlucky1 @ Sun, 10 Feb 2019 - 15:41) *
Thanks for the update and giving me an idea of potential outcomes. I feel stupid now for not completing that form I just expected I would get a letter back from them. Please forgive my ignorance but I'm struggling to understand why it best to plead not guilty and attend court. In both cases it has been said they may agree to drop the s.172 if I plead guilty now or outside the court rooms but they also might not. However there is a 33% reduction if I plead guilty now...


There will be a 33% reduction if you plead guilty in court, saying you are not guilty now is not pleading as such, it is an indication of how you will plead in court and means that the case does go to court for a trial. When you get to court after that it is the first opportunity to actually plead, so if you plead guilty then you get the 33% deduction. In Scotland you would get a reduction of 33% in the points as well, if they are discretionary as in speeding, but not if fixed, as in s.172.



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