PCN Catching Everyone Out - Illegal Notice on Suspended Bay?, Woking Council Lazy Signage Needs Addressing? Options

[Sjcuk7]

New to your forum here, a long time user advised me to post my story, so here goes...

Parked up in a parking bay in Woking, came back to find a ticket. On looking at the signage I could see the bays were suspended and I hadn't noticed in my rush to park legally....having moved from a yellow line. I thought nothing of it but the odd signage rang alarm bells.
I went back later that night to find two cars in each of the suspended bays, both with tickets.

I've since noticed that these very bays have appeared on here before but as I could not find an answer there and because it was suggested I start a new thread here I am.

My question revolves around the LEGAL nature of the signage, could I challenge the PCN on this basis alone? The council have added a laminated A4 piece of paper to the usual yellow board which has obscured some of the wording. Also is a laminated add on legal in itself? The font is different, the size of the letters too.
The bays are indicated on this add on with arrows rather than wording and lastly the car park doesn't have any name signage to say it is the name on the add on sign (Addison Road Car Park).

All help greatly received.

Many Thanks in advance.






This post has been edited by Sjcuk7: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 - 16:24

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[Mad Mick V]

OP---most of the grounds in the previous post are relevant--BUT the PCN states that Woking are the agents of Surrey County Council,which does have an approved suspension sign but not the one used:-

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-4348.pdf

This might not be the appropriate Order but you will note at Art 7 that suspension does not cover a change of use:-

https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...Woking/WO70.pdf

Mick

[Sjcuk7]

OP---most of the grounds in the previous post are relevant--BUT the PCN states that Woking are the agents of Surrey County Council,which does have an approved suspension sign but not the one used:-

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-4348.pdf

This might not be the appropriate Order but you will note at Art 7 that suspension does not cover a change of use:-

https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...Woking/WO70.pdf

Mick

Thanks Mick, I'm hoping the unapproved suspension sign will be sufficient, in the main because I'm not sure how to argue the change of use (they've been doing this since last at least August last year as they just change the dates by changing the add on). You will note from my picture the add on sign is bigger than the white box provided on the yellow sign and covers text on it.

[Sjcuk7]

OP---most of the grounds in the previous post are relevant--BUT the PCN states that Woking are the agents of Surrey County Council,which does have an approved suspension sign but not the one used:-

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-4348.pdf

This might not be the appropriate Order but you will note at Art 7 that suspension does not cover a change of use:-

https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...Woking/WO70.pdf

Mick

Thanks Mick, I'm hoping the unapproved suspension sign will be sufficient, in the main because I'm not sure how to argue the change of use (they've been doing this since last at least August last year as they just change the dates by changing the add on). You will note from my picture the add on sign is bigger than the white box provided on the yellow sign and covers text on it.

So that said, does anyone please have any suggestion how to word my challenge, in plain English?

[cp8759]

I would try and find the appropriate Traffic Regulation Order in the first instance, ask Surrey for it if you can't find it.

[Sjcuk7]

I would try and find the appropriate Traffic Regulation Order in the first instance, ask Surrey for it if you can't find it.

Thanks for the advice, I found THIS, however to my inexperienced eyes it's like looking for a needle in a haystack!

Please help!

[cp8759]

This is the main order: https://www.surreycc.gov.uk/__data/assets/p.../Cpz-Woking.pdf
You need to check all the amending orders just in case articles 33 to 51 have ever been amended (though Article 46 is obviously the most relevant one to your case, I would check all of them just in case).

Article 46 includes a power to suspend a parking place, but none of those provisions seem to cover suspending a parking space in order to create a private hire stand. It is also arguable that changing the designation of a parking space is not a "parking suspension", it's a change of designation. If the council wishes to turn two paid for parking spaces into taxi stands on a temporary basis, a TTRO would appear to be the appropriate means of achieving this. The suspension appears to be ultra vires.

Also, the sign authorised by the SoS is authorised for the purpose of "informing road users of the temporary suspension of parking places", the sign is not authorised for the purpose of changing the designation of a parking space (for example from a designated parking space where any motorist may park, to a designated parking space where only certain types of vehicle may park). The use of the sign (even if we accept it's substantially compliant) is therefore also ultra vires.

Furthermore, absent an amending TRO, TTRO, a valid article 46 suspension or other lawful authority, the parking places in question continue to be designated paid for parking spaces under Artcile 33 of the order, therefore the alleged contravention did not occur.

[Sjcuk7]

This is the main order: https://www.surreycc.gov.uk/__data/assets/p.../Cpz-Woking.pdf
You need to check all the amending orders just in case articles 33 to 51 have ever been amended (though Article 46 is obviously the most relevant one to your case, I would check all of them just in case).

Article 46 includes a power to suspend a parking place, but none of those provisions seem to cover suspending a parking space in order to create a private hire stand. It is also arguable that changing the designation of a parking space is not a "parking suspension", it's a change of designation. If the council wishes to turn two paid for parking spaces into taxi stands on a temporary basis, a TTRO would appear to be the appropriate means of achieving this. The suspension appears to be ultra vires.

Also, the sign authorised by the SoS is authorised for the purpose of "informing road users of the temporary suspension of parking places", the sign is not authorised for the purpose of changing the designation of a parking space (for example from a designated parking space where any motorist may park, to a designated parking space where only certain types of vehicle may park). The use of the sign (even if we accept it's substantially compliant) is therefore also ultra vires.

Furthermore, absent an amending TRO, TTRO, a valid article 46 suspension or other lawful authority, the parking places in question continue to be designated paid for parking spaces under Artcile 33 of the order, therefore the alleged contravention did not occur.

Thanks for the most helpful advice, I shall look for amending orders and see if I can spot their failure but I'm particularly interested in seeing if they have slipped up in their re-designation 'order'.

I'll post back with any findings but if anyone else has further advice please feel free.

[Mad Mick V]

OP-----have a look for amendments but I doubt the terms of the core Order will have changed. The danger is that a TTRO was posted up on a nearby lamp post (an A4 sheet wrapped in plastic) but again I doubt that Surrey County Council would have been asked by Woking to take such action.

I think you have enough from cp8759's input to challenge on his ultra vires grounds.

Mick

[Sjcuk7]

OP-----have a look for amendments but I doubt the terms of the core Order will have changed. The danger is that a TTRO was posted up on a nearby lamp post (an A4 sheet wrapped in plastic) but again I doubt that Surrey County Council would have been asked by Woking to take such action.

I think you have enough from cp8759's input to challenge on his ultra vires grounds.

Mick

Mick, thanks, but I'm going to be honest and upfront here, I don't have a clue what or how to look for what I need. I've gone to the main order and can see 13 amendments, each of them look the same, the only difference between most is entries in the tables included and there's 116 of those by the last. Each entry is listed as a plan number. I can see absolutely no provision made that allows for a change of designation or specifies permission for a temporary use of a parking bay, unless these plans have he clause hidden away within them.

[cp8759]

OP-----have a look for amendments but I doubt the terms of the core Order will have changed. The danger is that a TTRO was posted up on a nearby lamp post (an A4 sheet wrapped in plastic) but again I doubt that Surrey County Council would have been asked by Woking to take such action.

I think you have enough from cp8759's input to challenge on his ultra vires grounds.

Mick

Mick, thanks, but I'm going to be honest and upfront here, I don't have a clue what or how to look for what I need. I've gone to the main order and can see 13 amendments, each of them look the same, the only difference between most is entries in the tables included and there's 116 of those by the last. Each entry is listed as a plan number. I can see absolutely no provision made that allows for a change of designation or specifies permission for a temporary use of a parking bay, unless these plans have he clause hidden away within them.

Unless an amendment changes the main part of the order (rather than the list of streets listed where the order applies), which is unlikely but not impossible, you don't need to worry about them at all.

[Sjcuk7]

OP-----have a look for amendments but I doubt the terms of the core Order will have changed. The danger is that a TTRO was posted up on a nearby lamp post (an A4 sheet wrapped in plastic) but again I doubt that Surrey County Council would have been asked by Woking to take such action.

I think you have enough from cp8759's input to challenge on his ultra vires grounds.

Mick

Mick, thanks, but I'm going to be honest and upfront here, I don't have a clue what or how to look for what I need. I've gone to the main order and can see 13 amendments, each of them look the same, the only difference between most is entries in the tables included and there's 116 of those by the last. Each entry is listed as a plan number. I can see absolutely no provision made that allows for a change of designation or specifies permission for a temporary use of a parking bay, unless these plans have he clause hidden away within them.

Unless an amendment changes the main part of the order (rather than the list of streets listed where the order applies), which is unlikely but not impossible, you don't need to worry about them at all.

Ok, I'm fairly certain I can proceed on several basis, the sign, the change in designation and, having found your previous advice for the same location, the questionable naming of the location.

Incidentally, despite what is said in that other post, there IS a supposed Addison Road in Woking, it appears to be the alley leading into the carpark for pedestrians
Here's the view of the car park from the only way in, note 'my' bay to the left. The alley is just adjacent to the blue bin at the back of the picture on the right, it can be viewed from where it joins Chertsey Road here.

[cp8759]

I hadn't even clocked that it's a car park. That being the case, the contravention code is wrong. Code 21 is an on-street code, see https://www.patrol-uk.info/contravention-codes/

They should have used code 81 or 91 (Parked in a restricted area in a car park or Parked in a car park or area not designated for that class of vehicle)

[Sjcuk7]

One more question, where would be the best place to find a decent template to use that is well set out for my three strike challenge?

I hadn't even clocked that it's a car park. That being the case, the contravention code is wrong. Code 21 is an on-street code, see https://www.patrol-uk.info/contravention-codes/

They should have used code 81 or 91 (Parked in a restricted area in a car park or Parked in a car park or area not designated for that class of vehicle)

Oh that is perfect, I am going to go to town on their arses, the sheer incompetence is astounding!

Many thanks

[Mad Mick V]

To add to that----- the PCN says as agents of the county council. That is now rubbish since Woking Council have their own Off Street Orders --so they have cocked up the Enforcement Authority on the prime document.

Mick

[cp8759]

To add to that----- the PCN says as agents of the county council. That is now rubbish since Woking Council have their own Off Street Orders --so they have cocked up the Enforcement Authority on the prime document.

Mick

+1, the name of the enforcement authority is a mandatory requirement under the general regs.

Post a draft of your challenge here for comment before submitting.

[Sjcuk7]

To add to that----- the PCN says as agents of the county council. That is now rubbish since Woking Council have their own Off Street Orders --so they have cocked up the Enforcement Authority on the prime document.

Mick

+1, the name of the enforcement authority is a mandatory requirement under the general regs.

Post a draft of your challenge here for comment before submitting.

Thanks again, will do.

[Sjcuk7]

Post a draft of your challenge here for comment before submitting.

Mick

Thanks again, will do.

I received a parking ticket on 24/10/2018 but I believe the ticket was wrongly issued and I would like to submit an appeal for the following reasons:


• The alleged contravention did not occur

Quite simply, the parking attendant got it wrong and I was not parked inappropriately at the time the ticket was issued. This is due to the following:

1.) The suspension sign displayed contravenes the regulations for its use, namely it is authorised for the purpose of "informing road users of the temporary suspension of parking places", the sign is not authorised for the purpose of changing the designation of a parking space. The use of the sign is therefore ultra vires.

2.) From the published TRO online I can find no provision to cover suspending a parking space in order to create a private hire stand. Therefore I disagree that changing the designation of a parking space is a "parking suspension", it's a change of designation and should not be signed as a suspension.

3.) The PCN indicates the location as Addision Road and the contravention code (21) used is for on-street parking, I was neither parked on Addison Road nor on-street, instead I was in a car park, off-street.

4.) The PCN reads “Woking Borough Council ‘as agents of Surrey County Council’ “. Isn’t this incorrect too since as Woking Council you have your own Off Street Orders? Therefore it appears you have listed the wrong Enforcement Authority on the document and the name of the entitled the enforcement authority is a mandatory requirement under the general regulations.

5.) Finally, the sign itself, notwithstanding my argument that it was wrongly used in any case, includes a white box to include any dates and time, the addition of a laminated piece of A4 ‘jazzily’ printed paper which overlaps said box to the extent it obscures the actual writing on the sign surely invalidates the whole sign as it no longer meets the requirements as set out by the Council?

This post has been edited by Sjcuk7: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 - 11:18

[Sjcuk7]

One thing I may have to remove from my defence is the contravention code as I found the following from 2005 which lists Woking's codes within item 21 on pages 7 to 11.

https://mycouncil.surreycc.gov.uk/Data/Woki...Enforcement.pdf

[cp8759]

One thing I may have to remove from my defence is the contravention code as I found the following from 2005 which lists Woking's codes within item 21 on pages 7 to 11.

https://mycouncil.surreycc.gov.uk/Data/Woki...Enforcement.pdf

That document dates back to 2005, when PCNs were issued under the Road Traffic Act 1991, the PCN you have been given was issued under The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007 which came into force two years after the document you have posted.

The codes on the website of the Parking and Traffic Regulations Outside London Joint Committee is up to date and as far as I know Woking cannot go off and use codes of their own concoction.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 - 15:40