PCN from Civil Enforcement - lease car Options

[mcaf123]

Hi all. Looking for some advice please.....
I got a parking charge notice in the post today for not entering the reg number on the touch screen inside a doctor’s surgery which has been issued by Civil Enforcement.
The incident happened on 5/12/17 with the PCN being issued on the 9/2/18. The Driver was in the surgery for an appointment (they have checked their calendar), so proof from the doctors is possible, if necessary. The PCN was sent to The Keeper, which is a leasing company and they have forwarded it onto me to sort out and the car was returned to the leasing company a week after the incident. The leasing company have stamped the letter as being received/actioned on the 13/2/18, but the envelope says they posted it on the 19th so it’s been sat on their desk for 6 days! The covering letter they sent me is dated 17/2/18.

I understand lease cases are different? If CEL sent the NtK to the leasing company well after the 14 days period as mentioned in POFA, does that mean they cannot come after me as the actual keeper of the car (not The Driver)? I obviously don't want to not do anything as the leasing company will pay it on my behalf if they get another letter from CEL and they will pass that cost onto me, no doubt with extortionate admin fees.

Any advice would be much appreciated!





This post has been edited by mcaf123: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 22:08

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[ostell]

Looks like Honda don't know how to handle Private Parking Charges relying on POFA. They should have responded to CEL, as detailed in the PCN they received, the paragraph at the bottom of the page. They have also quoted POFA incorrectly. They can take action against the keeper, assumed to be the registered keeper unless it can be shown otherwise. You are the keeper in this instance.

Contact Honda and ask if they have responded to CEL as requested in the PCN so that they meet the requirements of POFA. They are supposed to if the want to remove any liability from themselves. Probably too late now, there may be another letter on its way to Honda.

You could respond to CEL by saying that you are the hirer of the vehicle and have been forwarded the PCN by the lease company. You comment the PCN was not received by the lease company until some 2 months after the event and therefore there can be no possible keeper liability in this matter.

If Honda charge you on this then dispute any charge on your card.

[mcaf123]

Looks like Honda don't know how to handle Private Parking Charges relying on POFA. They should have responded to CEL, as detailed in the PCN they received, the paragraph at the bottom of the page. They have also quoted POFA incorrectly. They can take action against the keeper, assumed to be the registered keeper unless it can be shown otherwise. You are the keeper in this instance.

Contact Honda and ask if they have responded to CEL as requested in the PCN so that they meet the requirements of POFA. They are supposed to if the want to remove any liability from themselves. Probably too late now, there may be another letter on its way to Honda.

You could respond to CEL by saying that you are the hirer of the vehicle and have been forwarded the PCN by the lease company. You comment the PCN was not received by the lease company until some 2 months after the event and therefore there can be no possible keeper liability in this matter.

If Honda charge you on this then dispute any charge on your card.

Thanks for the advice! Just so I'm clear when writing my appeal, I am quoting paragraph 9-5 of POFA?

[Redivi]

Dear Kevin

Ref ****

Thank You for your letter and the enclosed copy of the Parking Notice
I note your intention to pay the Notice if Civil Enforcement contact you again but I cannot agree to reimbuse you

If you inspect the Parking Notice, you will observe that it is dated more than two months after the alleged parking incident

You cannot therefore deny that Civil Enforcement has completely failed to meet the condition of the Protection of Freedoms Act Schedule 4 Para 9(4)(b) and 9(5) that the Parking Notice must be served within 14 days.
It clearly follows that it has never had any right to recover payment from Honda Contract Hire as the registered keeper and you could have discarded the document

For the avoidance of doubt, although I will provide my personal details to Civil Enforcement, I will have no liability to reimburse your company if you pay the Parking Notice by mistake

I note your email address and am quite frankly amazed that, more than five years after its introduction, Lex Autolease, the largest leasing company in the United Kingdom has sent me such a letter.
I can only think of three possible explanations :

1 Your company still does not understand legislation that is fundamental to its activities
2 You did not check the details of the Parking Notice before sending the letter
3 Your company regards the administration of these Notices, regardless of merit, as a profit centre and the charges greatly exceed the cost of dealing with the matter

Unless you can direct me to the specific legislation and paragraph that enables Civil Enforcement to recover payment from Honda Contract Hire for this Parking Notice, I suggest that you reconsider your intention to invoice me for your inaccurate and misleading letter.

Yours Faithfully

This post has been edited by Redivi: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 22:58

[mcaf123]

Dear Kevin

Ref ****

Thank You for your letter and the enclosed copy of the Parking Notice
I note your intention to pay the Notice if Civil Enforcement contact you again but I cannot agree to reimbuse you

If you inspect the Parking Notice, you will observe that it is dated more than two months after the alleged parking incident

You cannot therefore deny that Civil Enforcement has completely failed to meet the condition of the Protection of Freedoms Act Schedule 4 Para 9(4)(b) and 9(5) that the Parking Notice must be served within 14 days.
It clearly follows that it has never had any right to recover payment from Honda Contract Hire as the registered keeper and you could have discarded the document

For the avoidance of doubt, although I will provide my personal details to Civil Enforcement, I will have no liability to reimburse your company if you pay the Parking Notice by mistake

I note your email address and am quite frankly amazed that, more than five years after its introduction, Lex Autolease, the largest leasing company in the United Kingdom has sent me such a letter.
I can only think of three possible explanations :

1 Your company still does not understand legislation that is fundamental to its activities
2 You did not check the details of the Parking Notice before sending the letter
3 Your company regards the administration of these Notices, regardless of merit, as a profit centre and the charges greatly exceed the cost of dealing with the matter

Unless you can direct me to the specific legislation and paragraph that enables Civil Enforcement to recover payment from Honda Contract Hire for this Parking Notice, I suggest that you reconsider your intention to invoice me for your inaccurate and misleading letter.

Yours Faithfully

Absolutely amazing! Thanks so much for this

I have just appealed the PCN online via CEL's website saying:
I was forwarded this PCN from Honda Contract Hire and received it in the post today (20/2/18). They are the registered keeper and I was the hirer of this vehicle as of the incident date. I note that the PCN issue date was 9/2/18, which is some 2 months after the incident date and not received until 13/2/18 as indicated by Honda Contract Hire's stamp shown on the attached copy of the PCN that was forwarded to me. Due to the extended period of time that has elapsed between the incident date and the issue date, there can be no possible keeper liability in this matter.
You cannot therefore deny that Civil Enforcement has completely failed to meet the condition of the Protection of Freedoms Act Schedule 4 Para 9(4)(b) and 9(5) that the Parking Notice must be served within 14 days.

I have cherry picked bits from a couple your responses. I have screenshot my appeal and also the confirmation page just in case CEL try anything on later on.
I will update the thread and let you know how I get on!

This post has been edited by mcaf123: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 23:11

[ostell]

Shame you didn't put up your appeal for critique first! If you check the requirements of POFA you will find that therre is a lit more at fault in that notice. 9 (2) gives a list of items that MUST be included in the notice for keeper liability. A lot of them are missing and should have been mentioned in the appeal just to reinforce matters.

[Redivi]

Yes, especially if the hirer was not the driver

There was another two weeks before the appeal deadline

This might require the extra work of a POPLA appeal

[mcaf123]

Shame you didn't put up your appeal for critique first! If you check the requirements of POFA you will find that therre is a lit more at fault in that notice. 9 (2) gives a list of items that MUST be included in the notice for keeper liability. A lot of them are missing and should have been mentioned in the appeal just to reinforce matters.

Yes, especially if the hirer was not the driver

There was another two weeks before the appeal deadline

This might require the extra work of a POPLA appeal

I guess I was too keen to get this out of the way. Lesson learned
I will have to see what they come back with.....

[ostell]

I'd be interesting to see how the lease company respond when you write to them.

[mcaf123]

I'd be interesting to see how the lease company respond when you write to them.

I'll share their response when I get it.

[mcaf123]

Just got this reply from the lease company:

We cannot nominate individual for private parking charges due to the Data Protection Act. If you wish to supply your details to the issuer you will need confirm that you are happy for us to supply the details?

Instead we write to the individual to give them a chance to either settle the charge or appeal it.

This post has been edited by mcaf123: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 - 10:39

[nosferatu1001]

Wow, thats complete rubbish

I suggest you refer them to the BVRLA. Surely they realise the DPA has an exemption for legal proceedings as well?

Stupid customer service drone.

[mcaf123]

Wow, thats complete rubbish

I suggest you refer them to the BVRLA. Surely they realise the DPA has an exemption for legal proceedings as well?

Stupid customer service drone.

Should I just tell them I've contacted CEL directly to appeal?
Have you got any legal wording you'd like me to pass on to help them improve their knowledge lol?

[Redivi]

That reply is beyond belief

Dear Sir

Ref ****

Thank You for your prompt reply

It does, however, raise a new question

The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 that your own trade association, the BVRLA, lobbied for, authorised its members to pass on details of Hirers without regard to the Data Protection Act
Subsequent discussion with the British Parking Association agreed the documents to be provided

Are you seriously telling me that, five years later, nobody has told your Motoring Offences Department ?

Yours Faithfully

[mcaf123]

Got an invoice yesterday from the leasing company for their admin fee - £10. Not as bad as I thought it would be!

[ostell]

So will you be paying it under protest?

[mcaf123]

So will you be paying it under protest?

I'll tell them even though its £10, it's the principle of the matter. As was said above, they should know the rules and should have ignored the PCN as it was well overdue

[mcaf123]

That reply is beyond belief

Dear Sir

Ref ****

Thank You for your prompt reply

It does, however, raise a new question

The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 that your own trade association, the BVRLA, lobbied for, authorised its members to pass on details of Hirers without regard to the Data Protection Act
Subsequent discussion with the British Parking Association agreed the documents to be provided

Are you seriously telling me that, five years later, nobody has told your Motoring Offences Department ?

Yours Faithfully

In response to this, the leasing company replied:
The protection of Freedoms act 2012 allows us to nominate company details on notices that we receive which are then re-issued out by the issuing authority. However, under the data protection act we cannot provide individual driver details unless we have permission from the driver themselves to do so which is why the notice was sent directly to yourself along with a covering letter.

[Redivi]

As my old physics master used to say - Eight thirds pi r cubed

The Protection of Freedoms Act allows them to identify the Hirer whether it's a company or an individual

They're not asked to identify the driver who they cannot possibly know

[ManxRed]

Quote the relevant part of Section 13 of Schedule 4 of the act, and ask them which bit says they cannot send details of the hirer?

Hire vehicles.
13

(1) This paragraph applies in the case of parking charges incurred in respect of the parking of a vehicle on relevant land if—

(a) the vehicle was at the time of parking hired to any person under a hire agreement with a vehicle-hire firm; and

(b) the keeper has been given a notice to keeper within the relevant period for the purposes of paragraph 8(4) or 9(4) (as the case may be).

(2) The creditor may not exercise the right under paragraph 4 to recover from the keeper any unpaid parking charges specified in the notice to keeper if, within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which that notice was given, the creditor is given—

(a) a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement;

(b) a copy of the hire agreement; and

(c )(3) The statement of liability required by sub-paragraph (2)(c ) must—

(a) contain a statement by the hirer to the effect that the hirer acknowledges responsibility for any parking charges that may be incurred with respect to the vehicle while it is hired to the hirer;

(b) include an address given by the hirer (whether a residential, business or other address) as one at which documents may be given to the hirer;

(and it is immaterial whether the statement mentioned in paragraph (a) relates also to other charges or penalties of any kind).

Also ask them to quote the paragraph from the hire agreement that allows them to charge you £10 for this. I wouldn't be paying it.