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PCM LTD issued PCM even though parked in own space, Any advice greatly appreciated.
Peapoduk
post Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 07:16
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Hello all, a newbie here. Any help and advice would be greatly appreciated.

I know this has probably been covered before but after a bit of reading I am little confused on what my course of action should be whether to ignore or communicate again with them.

I received a PCM last week. The background is that our management housing agency engaged PCM Ltd to manage our parking garage. This was because there was a lot of parking issues with non residents parking in spaces not allocated to them. Access to the parking garage is via key fob but the gate doesn't always close due to some residents messing with it.

We didn't receive a letter from the managing agent only a letter from PCM saying that they had been engaged by the managing agent and permits were given. I've lived here for 5 years and there was no parking permit system until last November.

To be honest I didn't question it as last year my brain was not fully with it, had a really prem baby so I was always coming and going to the hospital.

Anyways sorry I'm dithering I had my permit on my dashboard and when I closed the door it fell off. I didn't notice as I was distracted by my bubba crying. So when I came back to the car I saw the PCM and panicked so immediately like a fool I know appealed and revealed I was the driver. Naively thinking it was an honest mistake as I have rights to my space e.g. it's in my lease and it clearly states my parking space number and no where does it say about a parking permit.

So obviously my appeal was denied and they have said I could appeal to IAS.

Now I know now I should have done my homework and not engaged with them because they would have needed to send me a notice to driver (I think?)

I've been looking on MSE and parking prankster and a lot of what people have said is to ignore now after reading here there is advice I should engage with IAS? On the signs it says the managing agent has no sway on PCM being cancelled.

I'm not sure what to do and with a small bubba my anxiety levels have reached through the roof.

Any advice or help would be so gratefully appreciated.

Best wishes,

Peapoduk

This post has been edited by Peapoduk: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 07:26
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Peapoduk
post Sun, 10 Jun 2018 - 17:38
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Again thank you all for your views and advice. I have lots to research and lots to think about. Currently just awaiting what the MA will come back with next week to the letter Eljayjay kindly drafted. Will post their reply.

Best wishes and many thanks all,

Peapoduk
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Peapoduk
post Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 06:07
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Good morning all,

Just wanted to quickly update you all, I received a new email and basically our old housing officer left and we have a new one. She's basically said she will responsd as soon as she can (this is in response to the email I sent which Eljayjay kindly drafted).

In the past week or so a few of the residents (9 flats so far) have formed a informal residents association and are fighting back against our MA and PCM Ltd. Several of the residents have been ticketed despite being in their own bays so we are saying enough is enough.

Our informal chairwoman (not sure what to call her) has sent letters to the Finance Director of the MA on our behalf, as apparently he is the big shot we need to fight against and has also submitted a letter to our local MP and we have now been allocated a case number.

So I don't shoot myself in the foot, I have drafted the below response to the housing officer. Is this OK and do you think it's a good idea to mention the case number from our local MP?

"Good morning (),

Thank you for responding.

I presume that you are ()'s new housing officer? If so, will a letter be sent out to all residents confirming this, so that they know who to contact in the event of further issues raised?

Please also note, several letters have been sent to (MA)'s , Executive Director of Finance, (), detailing several issues.

One of which is the management of ()'s parking and the harassment of its residents (i.e. residents being ticketed despite being parked in their own bays). A copy of this letter has also been sent to our local MP () and a case has been raised.

I would appreciate a detailed response within 7 days, as I am currently being harassed and threatened with court action by your agent Parking Control Management Ltd, which is causing my family and I unduly stress and exacerbating my anxiety.

Regards,"

As always any thoughts and comments are greatly appreciated.

Best wishes,

Peapoduk
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The Rookie
post Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 07:00
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Very little your MP can do, what you could do is agree you want to raise a claim against the MA for tortious interference, and then all write cease a desist letters, follow up with LBA’s and court claims if necessary, get good advice and you can all send the same letters.

You could also ask the MA (who is meant to work for not against you) for a summary of his diligence before signing the contract. Also for whatever he believed gave him the authority to allow PCM to sell your parking space to anyone wanting to pay the advertised fee.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 07:00


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emanresu
post Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 07:15
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QUOTE
You could also ask the MA (who is meant to work for not against you)


This is where a lot of people go wrong. The MA does not work for the people they take money off. The money paid is not consideration in the contractual sense but rather a debt owing for services organised on behalf of the Freeholder for the benefit of the residents - at the residents cost.

For example, take painting the walls. You invite a painter to paint the internals - you have a contract with the painter and the money paid is consideration.

Painting the common areas is different as you have no authority to contract with a painter to paint the common areas. That is the MA's/Head Leaseholders job to organise and recharge.

This post has been edited by emanresu: Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 07:20
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Eljayjay
post Sun, 17 Jun 2018 - 17:26
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I have had a quick look at your latest posts and shall respond with more detail tomorrow.
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Peapoduk
post Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 15:15
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Hello all,

I've just received an email from the MA which I have posted below.

"Good Afternoon Peapoduk

Thank you for your patience while I looked into this matter.

I have made contact with PCM and have discussed with them the points that you raised.

I am pleased to advise your allocated parking bay has now been opted out of any parking control with immediate effect. You will no longer be required to display a permit and PCM will no longer enforce parking in your allocated bay.

In terms of the parking ticket that you received, I have advised them of the reference number and your intention to have this overturned. They have explained that you should make contact with them directly and continue to follow their appeals process in regards to this particular matter. If you require information on how to do this, please do let me know but this should be clearly stipulated on the ticket.

I trust you will find this response satisfactory however, if there is anything further I can do to assist you please do let me know.

Kind regards"

Now what I don't get that if the MA has been in contact with PCM why the hell do i have to contact PCM and I've already gone through the 1st stage of the their appeal and i didn't appeal to IAS. I've already stated this in previous emails so I intend to go back to them and get PCM to cancel it.

Is there anything else I should mention?

Many thanks,

Peapoduk

This post has been edited by Peapoduk: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 16:13
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Eljayjay
post Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 16:04
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On the whole, that is really good news, but it is a piece of cheek telling you to get in touch with the parking company.

I suggest that you reply as follows:-


Dear <salutation>

Thank you for your email of 18 June.

I am grateful to you for discussing the points which I made about parking with your agent, the parking company. At the same time, however, I am extremely surprised that you wish to burden me with the task of getting in touch with your agent.

I have no relationship whatsoever with the parking company. The parking company is your company's agent, not mine. That being so, it is your company, not I, who is obliged to direct and control the parking company's behaviour.

In these circumstances, it is incumbent upon you to instruct the parking company, as your company's agent, very firmly that they must cease and desist from both their activities in relation to my allocated parking space and their harassment of me. I look forward to receiving confirmation that you have issued those instructions.

Please be in no doubt that, in the event of the parking company contacting me again or harassing me in any other way, I shall have no hesitation in commencing court proceedings against your company as the parking company's principal.

Yours sincerely,

This post has been edited by Eljayjay: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 16:07
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flexeh
post Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 16:12
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So you have now been opted out of something you never opted into... Nice! Shouldnt the management companies ask if you want to opt in to protect your space against people misusing it, rather than automatically opting you in and then trying to bill you the priviliage!

This post has been edited by flexeh: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 16:13
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Peapoduk
post Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 18:23
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QUOTE (Eljayjay @ Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 17:04) *
On the whole, that is really good news, but it is a piece of cheek telling you to get in touch with the parking company.

I suggest that you reply as follows:-


Dear <salutation>

Thank you for your email of 18 June.

I am grateful to you for discussing the points which I made about parking with your agent, the parking company. At the same time, however, I am extremely surprised that you wish to burden me with the task of getting in touch with your agent.

I have no relationship whatsoever with the parking company. The parking company is your company's agent, not mine. That being so, it is your company, not I, who is obliged to direct and control the parking company's behaviour.

In these circumstances, it is incumbent upon you to instruct the parking company, as your company's agent, very firmly that they must cease and desist from both their activities in relation to my allocated parking space and their harassment of me. I look forward to receiving confirmation that you have issued those instructions.

Please be in no doubt that, in the event of the parking company contacting me again or harassing me in any other way, I shall have no hesitation in commencing court proceedings against your company as the parking company's principal.

Yours sincerely,


Hi Eljayjay as always eternally grateful for your help. I put a little paragraph saying I had already gone through their appeal and won't be contacting them again. It's so bloody cheeky I didn't bloody opt in in the first place!

Many thanks and best wishes,

Peapoduk


QUOTE (flexeh @ Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 17:12) *
So you have now been opted out of something you never opted into... Nice! Shouldnt the management companies ask if you want to opt in to protect your space against people misusing it, rather than automatically opting you in and then trying to bill you the priviliage!


They bloody take the biscuit! I'll be telling my fellow residents that they don't have to put up with their crap l!
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The Slithy Tove
post Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 20:17
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QUOTE (Peapoduk @ Mon, 18 Jun 2018 - 19:23) *
They bloody take the biscuit! I'll be telling my fellow residents that they don't have to put up with their crap l!

Quite right. If enough people opt out, and you have set the precedent, then it'll be no longer financially viable for PCM to continue, and they'll likely go away.
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Peapoduk
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 16:42
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Hello all,

So after thinking that my MA would be dealing with my ticket I received the following communication:

I think it's utter rubbish!

"
Good afternoon Peapoduk,

Apologies for the delay in responding further but I have been out of the office.

I have taken some further time to review your points below.

I am sure you can appreciate that parking control was implemented at () due to the sheer number of complaints we received from residents who did not have ready access to their rightful bays. Due to the lack of parking in the wider area, this caused a great inconvenience and distress to those affected. As stated in your lease, you have the right to use bay 38 whist other residents have the right to use alternative bays.

As (MA) simply do not have the resources to deal with parking issues, It was considered to be reasonable and necessary to bring in a parking regulation for the purpose of securing orderliness and for the convenience of residents.

At the time of implementation, all residents received communication advising of when parking controls would commence and detailed the terms and conditions of parking controls. Residents have also been advised that (MA) have no jurisdiction over enforced vehicles and under no circumstances will we (MA) be able to act as mediators in any cases concerning enforcement action of any vehicles. In addition to this, signage was installed around the site clearly stating the terms and conditions of the parking controls.

Having reviewed correspondence between yourself and (MA), I can find no evidence of you objecting to parking controls at any time prior to our recent discussions. As the Freeholder of the land, we are entitled to manage parking matters which we have done so in a reasonable manner and to benefit the residents. Since you have raised an objection, (MA) have acted accordingly and instructed PCM to cease enforcement action in relation to your allocated bay which they have done so with immediate effect.

In terms of the ticket that you have received, as explained, (MA) are unable to assist you in having this overturned. All parking related matters should be dealt with via the parking operator or debt recovery agent (if applicable). You have mentioned that you have no contract with PCM which is incorrect insofar as you agreed, by entering and remaining on the land covered by parking controls, to abide by all the terms and conditions as stipulated by PCM. This is clearly stated on the signage installed in the car park as are the relevant terms and conditions.

I do wish you the best in terms of having your ticket overturned but I hope you can appreciate that I am unable to assist you any further in that respect.

If there is anything else I can assist you with, please do let me know."

So by their definition I entered into a contract by parking there which is utter bollox because I have always parked there even before the signs have come up.

I didn't complain at the time because I was dealing with having to travel to and from the hospital to visit my daughter.

I'm so ****** off as it was looking so promising.

Any advice or thoughts welcome.

Best wishes,

Peapoduk


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Jlc
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 17:07
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I would bet some of those words have come from the parking company...

Yes the signs where there but they do not have primacy over your lease. This is the point.

Unfortunately in dealing with them they may well play the usual game of rejection and court threats - do not fold. If a claim is raised then counterclaim...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Eljayjay
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 17:18
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Jlc is absolutely right.

If you want to respond to these thickies, I think the reply needs to be sweet and simple. You could try this...

Dear <>,

Thank you for your email of <> regarding the parking issues at <>.

In reply, I confirm that, in the event of the parking company contacting me again or harassing me in any other way, I shall have no hesitation in commencing court proceedings against your company as the parking company's principal.

It is your choice.

Yours sincerely,


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Peapoduk
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 17:24
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Thank you Jlc and Eljayjay. So just to clarify and make right in my mind. My lease trumps the signs and I did not enter a contract with PCM simply by parking as I always do in my space.

In the meantime, once I receive a LBC I can counterclaim at the same time.

Brill, will start reading and drafting responses to get ahead!

Best wishes,

Peapoduk
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Eljayjay
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 17:50
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The parking company will be concerned that any breakthrough made by you is the thin end of the wedge.

By fighting back, they will be worried that this is the beginning of the end of charging your fellow residents £100 for parking in their allocated parking spaces.

It may be good if they take you to court - all arguments would then be settled. Although I cannot guarantee anything, I do, firmly believe that your lease provides an ideal basis for a successful defence.

You will want to cover other angles, but the matter really boils down to two issues. As mentioned in a previous post, they are:-

"A couple of issues on which you really do need to focus relate to two extracts from your lease.

The first issue concerns "The right to use parking space numbered 38 and shown on the plan annexed and labelled parking plan on the hard standing of the estate." in the section on Easements and Rights. Although you do not own the space, you have a right to use it which, in my opinion, makes you its occupier (a term of some importance when Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 is at issue). There is a principle implied in every lease known as "non-derogation of grant". Briefly, what it means is that, once something has been granted by a lease, it cannot be taken away or diminished. So, no-one else can have that right or even share it with you because, if they did, you would lose that right either all or some of the time. That being so, the parking company cannot use your allocated parking space for their business purposes unless you had agreed to cede the right to use the space them or agreed to share the right to use the space with them. Of course, you have not done that. So, if you ask yourself the question "how can they charge me for parking?", you should come up with the answer "they can't".

The second issue concerns "For the purpose of the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 no one other than the parties to this lease and their permitted assigns has the right to enforce the terms of this lease." in the section on Third Party Rights. There are almost certainly two or three parties to the lease: the Landlord or Lessee, i.e. the freeholder; the Tenant or Lessee, i.e. you and any co-owner of your lease; and, possibly, the Management Company. Anyone who is not a party to the lease is, of course, a third party. The parking company is a third party and, as this clause states, "no one other than the parties to this lease and their permitted assigns has the right to enforce the terms of this lease". Consequently, even if the parking scheme had been introduced in accordance with the terms of the lease (which is very probably not true), the parking company cannot enforce any claim which it makes against you."

It is that simple.
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Churchmouse
post Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 23:45
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QUOTE (Eljayjay @ Thu, 21 Jun 2018 - 18:50) *
The second issue concerns "For the purpose of the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 no one other than the parties to this lease and their permitted assigns has the right to enforce the terms of this lease." in the section on Third Party Rights. There are almost certainly two or three parties to the lease: the Landlord or Lessee, i.e. the freeholder; the Tenant or Lessee, i.e. you and any co-owner of your lease; and, possibly, the Management Company. Anyone who is not a party to the lease is, of course, a third party. The parking company is a third party and, as this clause states, "no one other than the parties to this lease and their permitted assigns has the right to enforce the terms of this lease". Consequently, even if the parking scheme had been introduced in accordance with the terms of the lease (which is very probably not true), the parking company cannot enforce any claim which it makes against you."

It is that simple.

No it isn't. We've had this discussion before. A third party cannot enforce the terms of the lease--true. But that's not what the PPC is seeking to enforce! They are seeking to enforce their own contract, the one they allege exists between them and the driver of the vehicle (and which does not include or involve the freeholder or the MA at all). The purpose of the freeholder/MA engaging the PPC to "manage parking" at the site may have had something to do with the lease, but that is a separate issue from the alleged contract of parking.

--Churchmouse
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Eljayjay
post Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 02:00
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Yes, we have had this discussion before. Please refer to my responses in posts #39 and #45.
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 07:50
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Indeed, I would go back with Elijays response

You can also point out the MA cannot put up signs stating you enter a new contract, because you already had the rights to park. that they employed a third party to put signs up is no concern of yours.
You were under no obligation to object to a scheme which has no validity when it comes to your space. That the MA has overstepped its powers in employing a PPC is no concern of yours, until and unless the PPC starts harassing you. Then it is the MAs problem to deal with.

As you have been identified as the freeholder, you will have assets that my counterclaim can be applied to. I suggest you INSTRUCT your AGENT to cease their harassment of me, otherwie you continue to breach MY lease due ot the right to peaceable enjoyment contained within it,
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ManxRed
post Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 08:13
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Tell them to Google the Law of Agency.


--------------------
Sometimes I use big words I don't understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.
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Peapoduk
post Fri, 22 Jun 2018 - 08:41
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Thank you all, you have been so helpful to me. Makes me want to continue to fight and not give in. It can be really daunting and stressful but you guys have really helped with my anxiety.

I have amended Eljayjay's draft (thank you very much) with nosferatu1001 and ManxRed's comments (again thank you)

"Dear (),

Thank you for your email of dated the 21st June regarding the parking issues at ().

In response to your reply, please note the following:

The signage that you employed Parking Control Management Ltd (a third party) to put up cannot compel me to enter into a contract with them because I already have the right to park in my space.

As such I was under no obligation to object to a scheme that had no validity when it comes to parking in my own space.

You claim that the introduction of this scheme was to the benefit of the residents but how is it a benefit to residents to be charged £100 to park in their own bay or to be threatened with legal action. 

Therefore I confirm that, in the event of Parking Control Management Ltd contacting me again or harassing me in any other way, I shall have no hesitation in commencing court proceedings against you () the freeholder, (who will have assets that my counterclaim can be applied to) as Parking Control Management Ltd's principal. (Please refer to the law of agency in reference to agent liability)

I suggest you INSTRUCT your AGENT to cease their harassment of me, otherwise you continue to breach MY lease due to the right to peaceable enjoyment contained within it.

It is your choice.

Yours sincerely,

Peapoduk"

Do you think this is OK?

Best wishes,

Peapoduk

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