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Speeding ticket/fine from France 10 months later
xerxestheconfuse...
post Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 14:01
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We went to France last year in early September, and yesterday morning I received a letter from France dated 17/06/2019.
One letter is headed Ministere Publique with an address in Rennes Brittany - we didn't go anywhere near Brittany. It seems to indicate that I have to pay Euros 375 with a reduction to Euros 300 if I pay within 30 days. On this letter there is also a time, date and place - Vauclerc - which would indicate that I was there, because it includes my reg number and car make.

The next letter is a - Formulaire de Reclamation
Finally a letter telling me where to pay the money to.


I have no idea what to do, because I was very careful in France last year, and if I was speeding then everyone else around me was as well.

I have read some of the other posts on here, and none of the correspondence is in English and I was driving my own, UK registered vehicle at the time.
This seems an awful lot to pay for a speeding fine - my first ever in France in 21 years of driving there.


Any advice on what to do next would be welcomed.
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post Mon, 8 Jul 2019 - 14:01
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baroudeur
post Sun, 22 Sep 2019 - 14:31
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 21 Sep 2019 - 20:19) *
QUOTE (baroudeur @ Sat, 21 Sep 2019 - 17:19) *
The Cross Border Agreement requires a penalty notice to be issued in the language of the vehicle's registration document ergo for the UK in English or Welsh.

Article 6 ECHR requires that a notice bee sent in a language the accused can understand. It's a reasonable inference that a registered keeper would understand the language of the country where his vehicle is registered, but this is not irrebuttable.

For example if a Brit had a car registered in Spain, but didn't speak Spanish, and he got a fine from France, he'd be well within his rights to ask for a new notification to be given to him in English. If the French state were to simply refuse and insist on using Spanish or French, that would be a breach of that person's Article 6 rights. For reference:

3. Everyone charged with a criminal offence has the following minimum rights:
(a) to be informed promptly, in a language which he understands and in detail, of the nature and
cause of the accusation against him;



Why get bogged down in Article 6 debate? Nobody is going to a European Court in relation to a motoring offence committed in a foreign country as the usual course is to pay up or ignore?

France and Germany are now issuing penalty notices in English to the 'owner' of UK registered cars. They can reply in English or, if their native language is not English, they can ask for a copy in an EU language they understand. In the unlikely event they do choose to challenge the offence in a foreign court they will get an interpreter thereby complying with Article 6.
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cp8759
post Mon, 23 Sep 2019 - 18:41
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QUOTE (baroudeur @ Sun, 22 Sep 2019 - 15:31) *
Why get bogged down in Article 6 debate? Nobody is going to a European Court in relation to a motoring offence committed in a foreign country as the usual course is to pay up or ignore?

Well obviously some people do as there's been a few ECHR judgments on foreign-issued road traffic penalties of various descriptions.

QUOTE (baroudeur @ Sun, 22 Sep 2019 - 15:31) *
France and Germany are now issuing penalty notices in English to the 'owner' of UK registered cars. They can reply in English or, if their native language is not English, they can ask for a copy in an EU language they understand. In the unlikely event they do choose to challenge the offence in a foreign court they will get an interpreter thereby complying with Article 6.

The highlighted bit is wrong. They are entitled in law to a copy of the notification in a language they understand, whether it's an EU language or not. I don't understand this fixation with it having to be an EU language to be honest.


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roythebus
post Mon, 23 Sep 2019 - 22:54
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When I dowloaded the French forms in English I still couldn't understand the French wording on the forms.
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baroudeur
post Wed, 25 Sep 2019 - 12:56
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 23 Sep 2019 - 19:41) *
QUOTE (baroudeur @ Sun, 22 Sep 2019 - 15:31) *
Why get bogged down in Article 6 debate? Nobody is going to a European Court in relation to a motoring offence committed in a foreign country as the usual course is to pay up or ignore?

Well obviously some people do as there's been a few ECHR judgments on foreign-issued road traffic penalties of various descriptions.

QUOTE (baroudeur @ Sun, 22 Sep 2019 - 15:31) *
France and Germany are now issuing penalty notices in English to the 'owner' of UK registered cars. They can reply in English or, if their native language is not English, they can ask for a copy in an EU language they understand. In the unlikely event they do choose to challenge the offence in a foreign court they will get an interpreter thereby complying with Article 6.

The highlighted bit is wrong. They are entitled in law to a copy of the notification in a language they understand, whether it's an EU language or not. I don't understand this fixation with it having to be an EU language to be honest.


EHCR judgments on 'motoring offences' refer to legal arguments not the offence per se which will have been decided in a national court. Nobody posting on this forum will be starting such proceedings so referring to EHCR is not particularly helpful.

In the initial stages of issuing a penalty the CBA requires the Penalty Notice to be served in the language of the vehicle registration. As the CBA applies only to EU countries that language will be the official one(s) for the country concerned.
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cp8759
post Wed, 25 Sep 2019 - 14:25
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QUOTE (baroudeur @ Wed, 25 Sep 2019 - 13:56) *
EHCR judgments on 'motoring offences' refer to legal arguments not the offence per se which will have been decided in a national court. Nobody posting on this forum will be starting such proceedings so referring to EHCR is not particularly helpful.

In the initial stages of issuing a penalty the CBA requires the Penalty Notice to be served in the language of the vehicle registration. As the CBA applies only to EU countries that language will be the official one(s) for the country concerned.

And as I've tried to explain, the recipient of such a notice is entitled to a notification in a language he can understand. Therefore the initial step may well be to issue a notice in the language of the country where the vehicle is registered, but if the recipient writes back in his own non-EU language requesting a copy in that language, the recipient must be sent a copy in a language he can understand. If the prosecuting authorities point-blank refuse, the national courts (which are bound by the convention) will find that the defendant's Article 6 rights have been violated. If the national courts refuse to do so, the recipient of such a notice can take the matter to the ECHR.

References to the ECHR are helpful because it's the ECHR that obliged prosecuting authorities to start issuing notices in a language the recipient could understand, it just happens to be the case that most recipients of such notices happen to speak the language of the EU country where they happen to reside.


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xerxestheconfuse...
post Sat, 5 Oct 2019 - 10:13
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A quick update, we may have reached a sensible conclusion.
This morning I received a letter dated 13th September stating

"Further to your request, I wish to inform you of the return to the reduced fixed fine issued against you as part of the file referred to above. The amount of this fine is reduced to 90 Euros."

I am now going to pay this fine immediately.
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cp8759
post Sat, 5 Oct 2019 - 13:09
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£80 and no points, not a bad result really.


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xerxestheconfuse...
post Sat, 5 Oct 2019 - 20:03
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 5 Oct 2019 - 14:09) *
£80 and no points, not a bad result really.



I suppose, but I am still a bit peeved about that speed camera, because it is an obvious cashcow. The road to that point was 110kph (around 66mph), then it is 90kph (54mph), then inexplicably it goes down to 70kph (42mph) - which is what I must have triggered. Then it goes back up to 110kph.
They keep a lot of information about the cameras on French sites, all kinds of stats.
This camera has since been taken out of action.
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cp8759
post Sun, 6 Oct 2019 - 15:43
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The setup you describe is quite typical in France, normally around junctions and crossroads or junctions.


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baroudeur
post Mon, 7 Oct 2019 - 11:28
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 5 Oct 2019 - 14:09) *
£80 and no points, not a bad result really.



There will be 4 points removed from a ghost licence at Rennes. (French start with 12 points and lose points with convictions)

Points for foreign drivers
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cp8759
post Mon, 7 Oct 2019 - 20:30
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The reality is that unless one visits a particular foreign contrary quite regularity, ghost points are somewhat irrelevant.


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xerxestheconfuse...
post Thu, 10 Oct 2019 - 10:36
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The plot thickens.
I went to pay the fine yesterday and you have to enter an "e payment" number to begin the process. I entered the number and it gave two green ticks to confirm that I had entered a valid number and then a message popped up in red to say;

"The e-payment number you entered corresponds to a notice than can no longer be paid online"

Can anyone please help, because this is getting more and more frustrating by the day.
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cp8759
post Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 10:21
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I would take a screenshot and email it to them. Follow up with a phone call.


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baroudeur
post Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 13:36
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QUOTE (xerxestheconfused @ Thu, 10 Oct 2019 - 11:36) *
The plot thickens.
I went to pay the fine yesterday and you have to enter an "e payment" number to begin the process. I entered the number and it gave two green ticks to confirm that I had entered a valid number and then a message popped up in red to say;

"The e-payment number you entered corresponds to a notice than can no longer be paid online"

Can anyone please help, because this is getting more and more frustrating by the day.



Was the letter in English and did it give the e-payment number you were using? If you trying to use the e-payment number relating to the original penalty notice this would no longer apply to the reduced amount.
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xerxestheconfuse...
post Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 17:59
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QUOTE (baroudeur @ Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 14:36) *
QUOTE (xerxestheconfused @ Thu, 10 Oct 2019 - 11:36) *
The plot thickens.
I went to pay the fine yesterday and you have to enter an "e payment" number to begin the process. I entered the number and it gave two green ticks to confirm that I had entered a valid number and then a message popped up in red to say;

"The e-payment number you entered corresponds to a notice than can no longer be paid online"

Can anyone please help, because this is getting more and more frustrating by the day.



Was the letter in English and did it give the e-payment number you were using? If you trying to use the e-payment number relating to the original penalty notice this would no longer apply to the reduced amount.



The latest letter which is dated 13/09/2019 (sent in an envelope postmarked 03/10/20189 which I have retained), does not have an email contact address, has no number to enter on the system and only says that if I have paid, then I have to send a letter detailing my bank details in order to receive a refund.
It states at the end of the letter - "If you have not paid, you must pay the amount of the fine indicated above.
So, how do I pay the fine?
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cp8759
post Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 18:08
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Do they have any other payment options, like bank transfer?


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baroudeur
post Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 15:42
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QUOTE (xerxestheconfused @ Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 18:59) *
QUOTE (baroudeur @ Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 14:36) *
QUOTE (xerxestheconfused @ Thu, 10 Oct 2019 - 11:36) *
The plot thickens.
I went to pay the fine yesterday and you have to enter an "e payment" number to begin the process. I entered the number and it gave two green ticks to confirm that I had entered a valid number and then a message popped up in red to say;

"The e-payment number you entered corresponds to a notice than can no longer be paid online"

Can anyone please help, because this is getting more and more frustrating by the day.



Was the letter in English and did it give the e-payment number you were using? If you trying to use the e-payment number relating to the original penalty notice this would no longer apply to the reduced amount.



The latest letter which is dated 13/09/2019 (sent in an envelope postmarked 03/10/20189 which I have retained), does not have an email contact address, has no number to enter on the system and only says that if I have paid, then I have to send a letter detailing my bank details in order to receive a refund.
It states at the end of the letter - "If you have not paid, you must pay the amount of the fine indicated above.
So, how do I pay the fine?



Go to www.amendes.gouv.fr and enter your reference number (starting Amende followed by 16 digits) from the original Penalty Notice and you should be able to log in and pay online.

Failing that by bank transfer: IBAN FR84 3000 1006 8235 5G000000 006 - BIC BDFEFRPPCCT -

Send to Centre d'Encaissement des amendes,
35908 RENNES CEDEX 9
FRANCE

Don't make payment without the payment code and enclose a copy of that letter.!
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cp8759
post Mon, 14 Oct 2019 - 13:27
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If you pay by bank transfer, online services like TransferWise will be significantly cheaper than your bank.


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