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Contravention 47 - parked on a bus stop or bus stand.
random651211
post Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 19:15
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Hello,

I'd be interested to hear what you make of the below.

They claim "Contravention 47 - parked on a bus stop or bus stand."

There is a video available below.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/x1ka3lq1tm0rjsu/I...2717-1.mov?dl=0

And the location on Google Maps is below. I parked outside of the bus stop - pretty much on top of the drain seen below.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Ocean+W...33;4d-3.1511867

* Edited to provide Google Maps location.

This post has been edited by random651211: Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 21:11
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post Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 19:15
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DastardlyDick
post Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 19:20
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Was there a sign anywhere in the Bus Stop saying "no parking except buses" or similar? If not, you may have a defence.

Ocean Way looks like a very long road, do you have a Google Street View reference of the exact location?

This post has been edited by DastardlyDick: Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 19:33
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random651211
post Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 19:37
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QUOTE (DastardlyDick @ Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 20:20) *
Was there a sign anywhere in the Bus Stop saying "no parking except buses" or similar? If not, you may have a defence.

Ocean Way looks like a very long road, do you have a Google Street View reference of the exact location?



Here is the view. I didn't park in the bus stop - on the pavement outside it. On top of the drain in the link below.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Ocean+W...33;4d-3.1511867
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Incandescent
post Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 20:57
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Video shows a white car parked part on footway, part on the bus stop, then another white car on-street that is you, I assume. If they've done a drive-by filming, it would seem they have confused your reg number with the one of the car in the bus stop.

You need to appeal on the basis that the offence did not occur as their own photos show you outside the bus stop layby.
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random651211
post Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 21:07
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Thank you. Yes, my car is the second car. Not parked in the bus stop.

I assume it's not an offence to park near a bus stop in the way shown? There are no signs or markings on the road where I parked.
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Neil B
post Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 22:00
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QUOTE (random651211 @ Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 22:07) *
I assume it's not an offence to park near a bus stop in the way shown?

Correct.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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random651211
post Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 22:32
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Thanks all. Wasn't sure whether it was an offence to block the entrance/exit to a bus stop....
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Neil B
post Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 23:07
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QUOTE (random651211 @ Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 23:32) *
Thanks all. Wasn't sure whether it was an offence to block the entrance/exit to a bus stop....

No it's not and it wouldn't matter as what they've alleged is different.

Draft something up for representations, around, as has been said, 'no contravention', keeping
it fairly simple and post here so we can tweak if needed.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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ford poplar
post Fri, 13 Oct 2017 - 03:29
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Parking with 2 or more wheels on the pavement/verge or parked on the carriageway could be considered an obstruction, worthy of a FPN, but that is not the allegation.

This post has been edited by ford poplar: Fri, 13 Oct 2017 - 03:31
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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 13 Oct 2017 - 05:50
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So this is the infamous CCTV car from Cardiff doing its stuff. Would like to see the PCN please esp the photos and timings.

Under The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (Penalty Charge Notices, Enforcement and Adjudication) (Wales) Regulations 2008 a postal PCN may be served:-

6.—(1) An enforcement authority may serve a penalty charge notice by post where—

(a)on the basis of a record produced by an approved device, the authority has reason to believe that a penalty charge is payable with respect to a vehicle which is stationary in a civil enforcement area;

My view is that "stationary" is highly subjective and legally unsound if you are caught via a moving drive by CCTV vehicle. I would certainly ask to see the documentation for this "approved device" to determine its parameters of use. I suspect it should be static when collecting evidence. The concept of a moving vehicle racking up lots more income might be attractive to the Council but in terms of sustainable evidence the process is highly dubious IMO.

Mick

EDIT

Thanks for a sight of the PCN (at post 1) which has extracted "evidence" photos from the video. They appear to be using GPS to tie in the location but what they are supposed to do is provide a "context view" which you would get with a static camera which pans in to show the VRM as a close up view and pans out to show the location. The DfT guidelines state:-

"The context image must provide a clear, sharp and free of motion blur image of the vehicle in its context within the road environment. The context image must have the same resolution as the CCTV camera."

If they are driving round taking a video they are using the device as "unattended" when camera cars can never fit into that category. They have someone review the video centrally and pick out possible contraventions. Not to sure about the VRM image requirements either if the angle is oblique in the photo

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/...pproved-devices

OP --- you have a cast iron case for not being in contravention--o/s the bus stand and not parked on any yellow lines so the CCTV bit is superfluous. It might however help others who get caught by this camera vehicle.

Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Fri, 13 Oct 2017 - 10:48
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random651211
post Fri, 13 Oct 2017 - 11:54
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Defence is as follows.

"The evidence provided shows the vehicle is clearly not parked in a bus stop or stand and so the contravention has not taken place."
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DancingDad
post Fri, 13 Oct 2017 - 12:16
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QUOTE (random651211 @ Fri, 13 Oct 2017 - 12:54) *
Defence is as follows.

"The evidence provided shows the vehicle is clearly not parked in a bus stop or stand and so the contravention has not taken place."



Add something along lines of....
Both the video taken from the CCTV car and the stills extracted from it, show that my vehicle was parked on normal highway, further down the road and outside the bus stop.
This PCN must be cancelled, to do otherwise would be wholly unreasonable, vexatious and bordering on frivolous.

If they don't cancel you can stuff them for costs at adjudication, IMO even if they don't contest an appeal.
Simply rejecting a formal challenge would be totally ridiculous.
The words at the end are the key words for cost awards.

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random651211
post Fri, 13 Oct 2017 - 12:18
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 13 Oct 2017 - 13:16) *
QUOTE (random651211 @ Fri, 13 Oct 2017 - 12:54) *
Defence is as follows.

"The evidence provided shows the vehicle is clearly not parked in a bus stop or stand and so the contravention has not taken place."



Add something along lines of....
Both the video taken from the CCTV car and the stills extracted from it, show that my vehicle was parked on normal highway, further down the road and outside the bus stop.
This PCN must be cancelled, to do otherwise would be wholly unreasonable, vexatious and bordering on frivolous.

If they don't cancel you can stuff them for costs at adjudication, IMO even if they don't contest an appeal.
Simply rejecting a formal challenge would be totally ridiculous.
The words at the end are the key words for cost awards.


Brilliant. Thank you.

I consciously parked outside of the bus stop. I have since and will again. I was amazed to get a ticket through the door.

This post has been edited by random651211: Fri, 13 Oct 2017 - 12:18
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DancingDad
post Fri, 13 Oct 2017 - 12:25
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It does remind me of one I got years back in Brum.
Parked on double yellows in a layby, front by but not over bus stand yellow box, BB displayed.
Came back to find a very pleasant CEO serving a PCN for parking on a bus stand.
Que?
His answer was the council had designated the whole layby as a bus stand.
But they hadn't got round to painting the markings yet....
Cancelled at informal challenge.
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random651211
post Wed, 25 Oct 2017 - 21:48
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Response from Cardiff Council.

They still maintain my vehicle was parked in a restricted bus stop or stand - despite proving otherwise in their own evidence. Mind boggling!

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John U.K.
post Wed, 25 Oct 2017 - 21:56
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Mind-boggling,, but then Never admit anything, never apologise seems to be written on the wall of most, if not all parking departments.

Nevertheless, a cancellation is a cancellation is a cancellation .... well done!
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DancingDad
post Thu, 26 Oct 2017 - 08:53
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Nice one.

Being generous to them (I woke up in a good mood), poor phrasing and proof reading not denial.

I think they are saying we served the PCN for being parked in a Bus Stand but on investigating found we had c0cked up.

And there is an apology

Nay matter, a win is a win.
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