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PCN - Parking Eye (Flip Out London E6)
John121
post Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 13:30
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Hi guys,
I was suprised to receive the following PCN from Parking Eye.
However the driver of the vehicle did not have any idea that you would have to pay to park in this car park, especially at 06.19am on a Sunday morning - if the driver had known he would definatley not have parked there.
Also driver advised the vehicle had broken down and would not start until after several attempts.

Ive attached both pages of the PCN and also attached a picture from Google Maps which shows the entrance of the car park (by looking at the picture I cannot see any parking charge sign anywhere near the entrance)

Please advise the best way to appeal this one?

Im really sorry if this topic has been covered many times but any help on my case will be much appreciated.







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post Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 13:30
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 17:17
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How many days after did it arrrive ?

Usual BPA template appeal but add on that he vehicle had broken down, and so any contract was frustrated.
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John121
post Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 21:11
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PCN arrived in the post today. So:
Date of event is: 01-10-17
Date Issued: 07-10-17
Date Arrived (Post): 11-10-17
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John121
post Fri, 13 Oct 2017 - 08:31
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Hey guys will the below appeal letter be ok to send off or should I add or remove anything else?
Only issue is I dont think I can use broken down (frustration of contract) as I did not overstay but reason PCN was received was because the car registration was not entered in terminal reception.

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am appealing as the keeper and ONLY Schedule 4 of the POFA (or evidence of who was driving) can cause a keeper appellant to be deemed to be the liable party. The PCN makes no attempt to pass liability to the keeper after 28 days. A vehicle can be driven by any person (with the consent of the owner) as long as the driver is insured.

There is no dispute that the driver was entitled to drive the car and I can confirm that they were, but I am exercising my right not to name that person. As the keeper of the vehicle, it is my right to choose not to name the driver, yet still not be lawfully held liable if an operator is not using or complying with Schedule 4.

This exact finding was made in 6061796103 against ParkingEye in September 2016, where POPLA Assessor Carly Law found: ''I note the operator advises that it is not attempting to transfer the liability for the charge using the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and so in mind, the operator continues to hold the driver responsible. As such, I must first consider whether I am confident that I know who the driver is, based on the evidence received. After considering the evidence, I am unable to confirm that the appellant is in fact the driver. As such, I must allow the appeal on the basis that the operator has failed to demonstrate that the appellant is the driver and therefore liable for the charge. As I am allowing the appeal on this basis, I do not need to consider the other grounds of appeal raised by the appellant. Accordingly, I must allow this appeal.''


I therefore expect you to immediately cancel the parking charge and inform me, in writing that you have done so.

If however, you reject this challenge, then, in accordance with the BPA Ltd AOS Code of Practice (version 2) 22.12, please ensure that you enclose all the required information including the necessary POPLA code, so that I may immediately refer this matter (and any further issues that I may subsequently raise) for their adjudication on the matter.

I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and ardently look forward to your reply.

Yours Faithfully

John121
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ostell
post Fri, 13 Oct 2017 - 09:15
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Warning of keeper liability under POFA is on the back page. Not Quite right but I don't think a judge would quibble.
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John121
post Fri, 13 Oct 2017 - 09:22
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Sorry please mind my ignorance all this is pretty new to me.

Are you saying that I need to change this appeal or is it ok to send off as it is?
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ballymunboy
post Fri, 13 Oct 2017 - 09:37
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Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think ostell is saying that the Notice To Keeper IS compliant with the Protection of Freedoms Act. Therefore ParkingScum intends to use the POFA to hold the Keeper liable.
The successful POPLA Appeal you cite (6061796103), was one in which ParkingScum could not hold the keeper liable under the POFA. Perhaps in that case the NtK was delivered outside the 14 days, the Keeper was under 18, or in Scotchland, or some other defect.

Again, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you can use the same argument in your own appeal.

EDIT: In the internal challenge to ParkingScum, maybe it's better to conceal the arguments you may use later in your POPLA appeal? For them, forewarned is forearmed, so to speak. What about just writing "NO CONTRACT FORMED. IMMEDIATELY CANCEL THIS CHARGE OR SUPPLY POPLA CODE TO CANCEL THERE." ? ParkingScum pay no regard to what is said in an internal challenge any way.

This post has been edited by ballymunboy: Fri, 13 Oct 2017 - 09:46
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John121
post Fri, 13 Oct 2017 - 09:42
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Do I have any grounds for appeal or is it best to just pay the reduced amount?

If there is any grounds for appeal I will really appreciate if you guys can forward me a template which I can use or send me a link to the relevant thread where I may be able to get a template from?
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ballymunboy
post Fri, 13 Oct 2017 - 09:48
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What about signage? Could you read it? If you couldn't see it, then no contract could be formed? It was quite early morning, yes? Was it still dark? Was the area, and the signage illuminated?

Sunrise in London on date of event (1 Oct) was 7.01am.
Lighting-Up Time, until one half-hour before sunrise, was 6.31am.
Civil Twilight, "the period when enough natural light remains that artificial light is not needed", was 6.28am

From https://www.timeanddate.com/sun/uk/london


Start time of alleged event was 6.19:40am (to 6.38:37am)

Therefore vehicle was parked during lighting-up time, before sunrise, and before civil twilight.

Signs were not illuminated. Signs were not readable. Therefore no contract formed and no charge to pay?



This post has been edited by ballymunboy: Fri, 13 Oct 2017 - 10:04
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John121
post Fri, 13 Oct 2017 - 09:59
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At 6.19am in the morning it was pitch dark so could hardly see anything.
Would that be the only thing I can appeal though?

This post has been edited by John121: Fri, 13 Oct 2017 - 10:30
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ballymunboy
post Fri, 13 Oct 2017 - 10:21
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QUOTE (John121 @ Fri, 13 Oct 2017 - 10:59) *
At 6am in the morning it was pitch dark so could hardly see anything.
Would that be the only thing I can appeal though?


Unreadable Signage seems quite a strong argument for that time of day. Was the signage illuminated? Appeal (to POPLA) with specific references to the BPA Code of Practice (Version 6, October 2015)

http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring (see p.29)

QUOTE
"Signs should be readable and understandable at all times, including during the hours of darkness or at dusk if and when parking enforcement activity takes place at those times. This can be achieved in a variety of ways such as by direct lighting or by using the lighting for the parking area. If the sign itself is not directly or indirectly lit, we suggest that it should be made of a retro-reflective material similar to that used on public roads and described in the Traffic Signs Manual. Dark-coloured areas do not need to be reflective."


Grounds for appeal there?

Can you visit the site, to survey and photograph all signage -- making a map that shows position of every sign, their dimensions, heights, font sizes, text and background colours, presence of artificial illumination (or lack of). etc..

This post has been edited by ballymunboy: Fri, 13 Oct 2017 - 10:25
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ostell
post Fri, 13 Oct 2017 - 10:21
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No, you appeal that no contract could possibly be formed with the driver as it would have been impossible to read any alleged signs because of the darkness.

Even if a contract could have been formed there was frustration of that contract because of a breakdown of the vehicle and it could not be moved.

post #10: At 6am in the morning it was pitch dark so the driver would not have able to see anything. Edit now.
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John121
post Fri, 13 Oct 2017 - 11:31
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How does this template look guys:

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am appealing this PCN as the time that the alleged contravention took place it was impossible to see any of the alleged signs because of the darkness. I refer you to the BPA Code of Practice (Version 6, October 2015) where it states: "Signs should be readable and understandable at all times, including during the hours of darkness or at dusk if and when parking enforcement activity takes place at those times”. As a result no contract could possibly be formed.
Even if a contract could have been formed there was frustration of that contract due to unfortunate circumstances because of a breakdown of the vehicle and it could not be moved. I have attached a witness statement which confirms this was the case.

I therefore expect you to cancel the parking charge and inform me, in writing that you have done so.

If however, you reject this challenge, then, in accordance with the BPA Ltd AOS Code of Practice (version 2) 22.12, please ensure that you enclose all the required information including the necessary POPLA code, so that I may immediately refer this matter (and any further issues that I may subsequently raise) for their adjudication on the matter.

I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and ardently look forward to your reply.

Yours Faithfully,

John121
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John121
post Fri, 13 Oct 2017 - 15:46
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Guys let me know if the above appeal is ok?

Also if you can send me a link to a template that I can possibly use that will be much appreciated as I understand that once my appeal gets rejected by Parking Eye, I will have to send a more detailed appeal through POPLA so want to make my case as strong as possible by using a drafted template, etc.

I had a template for a PCN I received at Stanstead airport, however a lot of the stuff is not relevant to this appeal as it has loads of stuff about airport laws, etc.
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ballymunboy
post Fri, 13 Oct 2017 - 16:14
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You may as well use multiple grounds for appeal (to POPLA). You only need one ground to stick for the charge to be cancelled. Go through the BPA Code of Practice (link given above) and pluck out anything and everything of relevance, and formulate appeal points around each of those.
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John121
post Fri, 13 Oct 2017 - 19:45
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Is it possible if you guys can send me links to any templates which I can use and possibly edit?
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ostell
post Fri, 13 Oct 2017 - 21:09
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Use the one you posted, it will probably be rejected anyway. The intention is to get a POPLA code and then you can use one of the POPLA templates.
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John121
post Sat, 14 Oct 2017 - 15:54
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Hey guys,
As advised I visited the car park and took some pictures of the sign boards which I have attached below, and to my amazement there is absolutely no lighting around these sign boards making it literally impossible to read especially at 06.19am when its pitch dark.

I have also spoken to Flip Out (the venue who the car park belongs to) and there have advised that there opening times on a Sunday are 10am. I received this PCN at 06.19am hence meaning that the venue was closed at the time I parked at the car park, making it no way possible to even enter my registration details within the venue reception. Is this a valid grounds for appeal?

Please advise how I should proceed, any ideas or help are welcome. I will be attaching pics separate.











Guys please note the below 2 pics in which the signs can be seen clearly have been taken with a flash camera.







Guys lets all get together and help with cancelling this PCN by these scum-bags.

Any templates that I can use will be highly appreciated ;-)

This post has been edited by John121: Sat, 14 Oct 2017 - 16:28
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ostell
post Sat, 14 Oct 2017 - 16:33
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That sign is a prohibiting sign. It is not offering parking to other than Flip Out customers, they are not offering a contract to park to non customers and therefore cannot claim for any breach as there was no contract. The only people that can claim are the landholders and then only for trespass.
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John121
post Mon, 16 Oct 2017 - 10:16
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Hey guys, im going to be sending my appeal to Parking Eye today. is the above ok to send off?

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am appealing this PCN as the time that the alleged contravention took place it was impossible to see any of the alleged signs because of the darkness. I refer you to the BPA Code of Practice (Version 6, October 2015) where it states: "Signs should be readable and understandable at all times, including during the hours of darkness or at dusk if and when parking enforcement activity takes place at those times This can be achieved in a variety of ways such as by direct lighting or by using the lighting for the parking area.”. The signs were not lit and impossible to see, hence no contract could possibly be formed.

I would also like to add that there was a frustration of contract due to unfortunate circumstances because of a breakdown of the vehicle and it could not be moved.

Finally, Flip out was closed at the time of the alleged contravention and therefore it was not possible for me to enter my registration details within the venue.

I hope the above is sufficient for you to cancel the parking charge and inform me, in writing that you have done so.

If however, you reject this challenge, then, in accordance with the BPA Ltd AOS Code of Practice (version 2) 22.12, please ensure that you enclose all the required information including the necessary POPLA code, so that I may immediately refer this matter (and any further issues that I may subsequently raise) for their adjudication on the matter.

I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

Yours Faithfully,

John121
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