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Box junction fine advice
Helpme2
post Sun, 23 Jul 2017 - 13:29
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What's people's advice on this fine I have had? My plate is mentioned in the letter but not in the picture, my wheel is ever so slightly on the box,
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post Sun, 23 Jul 2017 - 13:29
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 27 Jul 2017 - 21:59
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Not going to bother with the technical stuff as yet, but have tried to make it difficult to dismiss de minimis, whilst complying with the requirement to consider your representation


QUOTE
Representation against PCN number xxxxxx
VRM ab12 cde

Your name and address


I make this representation on the basis that if any stop within the controlled area occurred, it was so minor in both time and amount of incursion that the common law defence of de minimis non curat lex can be claimed.

This representation is the first stage in a legal process, it would be hoped by me, and I would contend expected, that this be given full consideration. That a contravention may have occurred is not the only qualifying criteria for the imposition of a penalty charge






Justice is rightly unwilling to rely exclusively on prosecutorial discretion to weed out cases undeserving of prosecution and punishment. The good judgment of prosecutors in eliminating trivial cases is necessary but not sufficient to the workings of the criminal law. There must be legal protection against convictions for conduct undeserving of punishment. And indeed there is. The judicial system is not plagued by a multitude of insignificant prosecutions for conduct that merely meets the technical requirements of "a crime" (e.g., theft of a penny) because prosecutorial discretion is effective and because the common law defence of de minimis non curat lex (the law does not care for small or trifling matters) is available to judges
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Helpme2
post Fri, 28 Jul 2017 - 07:31
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Thank you pastmybest! Shall I send whole of that with the justice quote at bottom
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hcandersen
post Fri, 28 Jul 2017 - 08:20
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With respect, I wouldn't. What would be the purpose? How would you respond if you were in their shoes and someone who was asking you to exercise discretion gave you a lecture in this form?

You did stop - why you've posted that you didn't is baffling. The sequence of events has not yet been laid out, so I suggest you do because it makes life easier:

Entered the junction at *****
Moved forward and slowed to a crawl. Continued to creep forwards until stopped at *** with approx. *** feet of my car in the junction;
Moved forward and then stopped again at *** at which point *** feet of my car was in the junction.
Moved off at ***.

Other than for estimates of the length of your car in the box, the rest are objective data, all you need to do is extract them from the video.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Fri, 28 Jul 2017 - 08:53
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 28 Jul 2017 - 13:18
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With deference to the view of HCA. " what would be the purpose" The council will reject a de minimis argument, they do not even understand that they should consider it. The quote or lecture
is more aimed at the adjudicator. who I am sure would agree with the sentiment that this should not be brought forward by the authorities

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Helpme2
post Sat, 29 Jul 2017 - 09:53
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This is going to be my effort to add to what pastmybest wrote, anything I should change?

Entered junction 19.24.26, traffic slowed to a crawl, I continued to creep foward until I stopped at 19.24.44 on the outer edge line of the box, at 19.24.47(3seconds) I continued to creep foward out of the box. This can be seen on video.i feel that for the for the small time I was stationary and the lack of obstruction I had on the workings of the box junction I feel that On the grounds of deminis I think I have a fair case for any fine to be cancelled.
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John U.K.
post Sat, 29 Jul 2017 - 10:45
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QUOTE
Entered junction 19.24.26


The time of the alleged contravention on the PCN is 19:24 (=19:24:00)

At that time you were not in the box and could not have been in contravention.

N.B. Some Adjudicators have accepted this point, others have rejected it.

My argument is that if you arrive at 19:24:26 at a train atation for a train advertised to depart at 17:24 and find the trainhas departed you have no cause for complaint or action against the train company.
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Helpme2
post Sat, 29 Jul 2017 - 10:59
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John U.K. Are you sayin I shouldn't appeal then?
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 29 Jul 2017 - 11:04
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QUOTE (Helpme2 @ Sat, 29 Jul 2017 - 11:59) *
John U.K. Are you sayin I shouldn't appeal then?


no he is giving another argument as to why you should. I will do a re draft taking on board everything said by others, but it won't be til Sunday night
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Helpme2
post Sat, 29 Jul 2017 - 11:13
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What do u think to what I have wrote pastmybest?
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John U.K.
post Sat, 29 Jul 2017 - 11:14
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QUOTE
John U.K. Are you sayin I shouldn't appeal then?


No, as PMB said, another point to include in your representations (not appeal yet - that is to tribunal).

Should it come to appeal, you need to consider the timing point carefully. I would not iappeal solely on that point, but if appealing, would include it.

But the choice is yours. Include it in your representations, and they may well fail to consider it, or muck up their response.

QUOTE
What do u think to what I have wrote pastmybest?


Take up PMB's kind offer to draft something. When is your deadline for submitting your representations?

This post has been edited by John U.K.: Sat, 29 Jul 2017 - 11:16
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Helpme2
post Sat, 29 Jul 2017 - 11:49
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My deadline is 3rdaug. Yes I defo am intrested to see what pmb can draft up. I really feel the fine to be unfair for the circumstance
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 21:02
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QUOTE (Helpme2 @ Sat, 29 Jul 2017 - 12:49) *
My deadline is 3rdaug. Yes I defo am intrested to see what pmb can draft up. I really feel the fine to be unfair for the circumstance


your 14 day deadline is the second. I have not forgotten just need an hour in the morning to finish up
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Helpme2
post Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 05:55
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 30 Jul 2017 - 22:02) *
QUOTE (Helpme2 @ Sat, 29 Jul 2017 - 12:49) *
My deadline is 3rdaug. Yes I defo am intrested to see what pmb can draft up. I really feel the fine to be unfair for the circumstance


your 14 day deadline is the second. I have not forgotten just need an hour in the morning to finish up


Ok thank u pmb, very much appreciated!
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hcandersen
post Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 07:33
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Your account looks fine in terms of clearly setting the scene and relying on de minimis.

I would not argue the issue of seconds on a PCN at this stage,if it were to get that far I'd leave this for adjudication to bolster a more substantive argument.
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 08:12
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 08:33) *
Your account looks fine in terms of clearly setting the scene and relying on de minimis.

I would not argue the issue of seconds on a PCN at this stage,if it were to get that far I'd leave this for adjudication to bolster a more substantive argument.


I had put together a representation using all points, but upon reflection HCA is right the more technical aspects are best left til adjudication.

You can argue better in your own words than you can using mine, so use what you wrote in post 25 not along side mine but instead off
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Helpme2
post Mon, 31 Jul 2017 - 08:54
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Ok thank you so much guys I have sent my reply and will keep you updated

Entered junction 19.24.26, traffic slowed to a crawl, I continued to creep foward until I stopped at 19.24.44 on the outer edge line of the box, at 19.24.47(3seconds) I continued to creep foward out of the box, This can be seen on video.i feel that for the for the small time I was stationary and the lack of incursion and obstruction I had on the workings of the box junction I feel that On the grounds of common law defence of deminimis Non curat lex can be claimed and and that I have a fair case for any fine to be cancelled
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Helpme2
post Wed, 30 Aug 2017 - 09:38
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Follow up to me sending my email in to appeal against fine. Today I have had a letter thru the door stating I owe £195!!!!??? I was under the impression that if my appeal was rejected I would be offered a further 14 days to pay £65???
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Incandescent
post Wed, 30 Aug 2017 - 09:59
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QUOTE (Helpme2 @ Wed, 30 Aug 2017 - 10:38) *
Follow up to me sending my email in to appeal against fine. Today I have had a letter thru the door stating I owe £195!!!!??? I was under the impression that if my appeal was rejected I would be offered a further 14 days to pay £65???

They have issued you a Charge Certificate from the amount you say is on this letter, please confirm. Either they have sent out a rejection of your appeal, or have failed to do so. At this point in the process, you cannot appeal the CC, but now must wait for the Order for Recovery that means the debt is registered at the TEC at Northampton. You then can make a Statutory Declaration that you made reps but did not receive a reply. The matter will then revert to the PCN stage.

Neil B on this forum is up-to-speed on these things. I think once the SD is accepted by TEC, the matter has to be referred to the adjudicators.

No harm in trying to contact them to find out what has happened to your appeal. However, is the address on your V5 correct, because they will reply by letter not e-mail, so if your address is wrong, you won't have got the Rejection of Reps letter.
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Helpme2
post Wed, 30 Aug 2017 - 10:15
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Yes they have issued a charge certificate, I have had nothing back from them at all regarding my appeal. I am worried that if I do not pay the £195 it will go up more!? I thought appeal would get rejected and just pay the £65
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Neil B
post Wed, 30 Aug 2017 - 10:17
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PCN says they reply by email unless post specified.

Check the address you sent to?

Any auto acknowledgement?

Any reply by e-mail? Junk folder?


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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