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Disabled badge bay with badge 5 mins only
dervytrucks
post Mon, 14 Aug 2017 - 12:12
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Hi, looking for some advice for a PCN from Croydon Council.

My mum who's disabled has parked in a disabled bay on the street in Croydon. There's a sign post for the bay (which is attached) and says 5 minutes only. The stay was overstayed as she didn't believe the 5 mins was applicable (normally disabled badges are exempt).

PCN under the wiper on return, but it references Contravention 40 which is described as "Parked in a designated disabled person’s parking place without clearly displaying a valid disabled person’s badge" ref:https://www.croydon.gov.uk/sites/default/files/articles/downloads/pcna1.pdf

However the badge was clearly displayed. They have photos of the car with the badge.

What is the grounds here? I can't see a contravention that would describe overstaying a time limit and so I'm uncertain if we have a leg to stand on.

Thanks in advance

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post Mon, 14 Aug 2017 - 12:12
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Mad Mick V
post Mon, 14 Aug 2017 - 12:50
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Looks like the CEO did you a favour with the contravention. It's wrong if a BB was displayed. It should have been "Parked for longer than permitted" a Code 30 and a lower penalty charge.

As to that sign ----the mind boggles---it takes 5 minutes to get a wheelchair out of the boot. And how far can a disabled person get on crutches in 2.5 minutes (with a return journey of the same period).

Local paper needs to be told unless someone has tampered with the sign.

Mick
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bribri
post Mon, 14 Aug 2017 - 13:33
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Just to ++ Mick's comment.

Is that really a genuine sign. It's appalling.
If anyone is local to it, please ask a councilor to explain it's justification.
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dervytrucks
post Mon, 14 Aug 2017 - 13:48
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Thanks for your quick reply Mick and giving me the info I need! Appreciate your advice.

The sign is a joke, I had the exact same thought trail earlier. I've already been on to Scope about different matters a few months ago and there are worse goings on.

Thanks again for your response. I'll lodge a proper appeal very soon. Is it still good to finish the letter with "I demand a reply within 7 days of the date of this letter advising me that you are dropping this case, however, if I do not hear from you after this period has passed I will take it as read that you have dropped any and all charges against me."?

Regards
Tony
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stamfordman
post Mon, 14 Aug 2017 - 14:08
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QUOTE (dervytrucks @ Mon, 14 Aug 2017 - 14:48) *
I'll lodge a proper appeal very soon. Is it still good to finish the letter with "I demand a reply within 7 days of the date of this letter advising me that you are dropping this case, however, if I do not hear from you after this period has passed I will take it as read that you have dropped any and all charges against me."?



First stage is an informal challenge not a formal appeal and I would just stick to the facts and let the process take its course. No good demanding something they don't have to do.

Also who is the car registered to.

Also, post the full PCN (front and back) so we can check it.
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nextdoor
post Mon, 14 Aug 2017 - 14:13
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Presumably with a time limit, the clock should also have been displayed. However the clock only has 15 min increments, so how is one supposed to set it to accurately show the time of arrival?
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dervytrucks
post Mon, 14 Aug 2017 - 15:22
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 14 Aug 2017 - 14:08) *
First stage is an informal challenge not a formal appeal and I would just stick to the facts and let the process take its course. No good demanding something they don't have to do.

Also who is the car registered to.

Also, post the full PCN (front and back) so we can check it.


Thanks, I understood (probably incorrectly) that finishing a letter with "if I don't hear from you..." is a legal closure and that if they don't reply it's taken as closure?

The car is registered to myself. However I'm working overseas at the moment. I'll get the PCN and post back.

QUOTE (nextdoor @ Mon, 14 Aug 2017 - 14:13) *
Presumably with a time limit, the clock should also have been displayed. However the clock only has 15 min increments, so how is one supposed to set it to accurately show the time of arrival?


Good point!

Thanks again for all your help here. Really appreciate it!
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stamfordman
post Mon, 14 Aug 2017 - 15:47
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QUOTE (dervytrucks @ Mon, 14 Aug 2017 - 16:22) *
Thanks, I understood (probably incorrectly) that finishing a letter with "if I don't hear from you..." is a legal closure and that if they don't reply it's taken as closure?


They don't have to reply to an informal challenge and there is no time limit, but most councils will reply and reoffer the discount if they reject. They do have to reply to a formal appeal (sent in reply to a notice to owner) in 56 days so that stage is taken care of.

Here's the process for a parking windscreen issued PCN:

http://www.londontribunals.gov.uk/eat/unde...rcement-process
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 14 Aug 2017 - 19:40
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I would be asking for the TMO, unless the bay is a drop off bay for a station or something, there could be a good argument made for breach of the Equalities act 2010

Post up both sides of the PCN and a GSV also get and post the council photos


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dervytrucks
post Tue, 29 Aug 2017 - 05:43
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I've appealed this today. Thanks for the insight.

Regarding the PCN / photos, I dont want to upload anything that can identify for obvious reasons. I have a notice to owner which is addressed to me, the owner. Will this suffice? I can use mspaint to scribble out the details.
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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 30 Aug 2017 - 07:05
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The NTO means you could have lost the discount so get in an appeal soonest.

We like to see documents because Councils have a wonderful habit of getting them wrong thus providing extra grounds of appeal.

If you are able to tell us the location we can check the sign on Google Street View.

As to taking this further, I would drop a line to (Mr) Ashley Everitt at Disabled Motoring UK a charity with some clout:-

https://www.disabledmotoring.org/about-us/overview

Mick
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hcandersen
post Wed, 30 Aug 2017 - 08:42
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It was said earlier and is correct, you cannot have a 5 minute period. This arises because the clock, which must be displayed whenever there is a time limit (bays with specified periods and yellow lines with statutory 3-hour limits) and has only 15-minute increments must be set to the next nearest 15-minute increment.

On the other hand we have NO details from the OP:

'She overstayed because she didn't think the time limit applied' .. we don't know for how long she was parked or whether she displayed a clock.

And we haven't seen the PCN.

And the OP says they have a NTO of unknown issue date.


C'mon OP, give us and yourself a chance!

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Wed, 30 Aug 2017 - 08:45
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dervytrucks
post Fri, 8 Sep 2017 - 05:28
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Sorry for the delays here!
I'm sorting and uploading the content now.

First up is the PCN, I had to take this from the council website as I dont have access to the original (not in the country). This is the image with the RED line along the top.

Next is the NTO. Not uploaded the 2nd page as it contains information about data protection and how to make representation.

Next is my appeal which was done by following the instructions on the NTO. This is below:

QUOTE
I have received a Notice to Owner for my vehicle regarding a PCN which was served on 18/06/2017 of which I was not the driver. The reason for the PCN / contravention code is code 40 and is described as "Parked in a designated disabled person's parking place without displaying a valid disabled person's badge in the prescribed manner".

I have investigated the photos you hold which were taken by the CEO whom issued said PCN however it shows from said photos that the disabled badge was clearly displayed in the usual manner, in the front windscreen, which it is displayed when parking in disabled persons parking bays at all times. I have also queried this PCN with the driver of the vehicle and they advise me they displayed their disabled badge in the usual manner. I am uploading a photo of the badge in the front windscreen which was taken upon returning to the vehicle and noticing the PCN affixed to the windscreen. You can make out in all photos containing the front windscreen that the badge is clearly displayed to support this representation.

Therefore it is clear to me that this PCN was incorrectly issued. I implore you to look at the photos taken by the CEO which will confirm my representation being made as an incorrect issuance of a PCN and that the alleged contravention did not occur. For this reason there will be no payment made. I have marked this representation under “The Traffic Order That Was Alleged To Have Been Contravened is Invalid” but this also fits the category “The Alleged Contravention Did Not Occur”.

I also ask you to liaise with the CEO whom issued this PCN as their error has caused a disabled person unnecessary stress and inconvenience above their existing day to day struggles.

Kind regards,


And then their rejection notice follows.

Thanks all for your help and kind words on this.

My plan is to kick up a fuss about the 5 minute parking AFTER the fine is dealt with. One thing at a time so to speak. This is why I've not mentioned this in my appeal, but I can do this on the next action if it will help.

The CEO has a timestamp photo of the disabled badge showing the time it was likely put in the windscreen. The timestamp seems like it is probably correct. Even if it's out by 15 minutes, their argument is that the time stayed is beyond the allotted 5 minutes. However they're ignoring the fact the PCN is invalid.
The next action is the londontribunals link. My plan at the moment (pending feedback here) is to take this to the london tribunals following that procedure with the same statements that the PCN was invalid and wont be paid.

This post has been edited by dervytrucks: Fri, 8 Sep 2017 - 05:33
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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 8 Sep 2017 - 06:17
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OP--This one?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Lansdow...#33;4d-0.093471

Mick
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dervytrucks
post Fri, 8 Sep 2017 - 07:38
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I think that's it Mick, it looks like it from the photos.
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hcandersen
post Fri, 8 Sep 2017 - 08:15
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And was a clock displayed,and what time did it say, and how long was the vehicle parked?

These issues are being dodged - why?

Clock displayed with time 10.15, 2.15 ????

And give us the date of the NOR, it is essential. At present we don't even know whether you're in time to make an appeal!

The NOR is non-compliant, but I want the answers to the above first.
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stamfordman
post Fri, 8 Sep 2017 - 08:43
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Surely the rejection concedes there was a valid BB and that was the contravention. I can't see that 'in the prescribed manner' makes any difference to exceeding 5 mins (which is a nonsense anyway).
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dervytrucks
post Fri, 8 Sep 2017 - 08:51
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Sorry, I saved the image to upload but didn't do it. I've attached them here. I think I ran out of space earlier then forgot about it as I had to amend my post.

No issues being dodged. I'm actually getting involved in this just when I posted the OP, which was when the NTO came through. Date of contravention is 18/06/17, that's been posted in the PCN from earlier.

Contravention time is noted as 2.23pm and clock is showing time of about 1.30pm.

As it stands I have 28 days from date of rejection notice being delivered (which arrived yesterday 07/08/17) to appeal to london tribunals.gov.uk. This was attached already.

Apologies if I've missed anything else, let me know and I'll sort it. I don't have access to the original PCN paper though, so the online one is all I can get.
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 8 Sep 2017 - 08:52
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2160217310

Mr Simmonds appeared before me today for the personal hearing of his appeal, accompanied by his daughter. He gave evidence in the same terms as his earlier representations to the Enforcement Authority and his Notice of Appeal.
This Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) was issued because Mr Simmonds’s car was seen parked on a single yellow line in Totterdown Street at a time when waiting was restricted. Although a Blue Badge was displayed, no disc or clock showing the time at which the parking had started was displayed. Mr Simmonds’ case was that he had in fact only parked for a few minutes to pick up his dry cleaning, which was supported by an email from the dry cleaning shop. That would not have given him a ground of appeal.
However, I noted that the waiting restrictions that applied to this particular stretch of the street, according to the Notice of Rejection and the photographs taken by the Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO), were from 7am to 10 am and from 4 pm to 7 pm. This PCN was issued at 6.41 pm, i.e. during the second of those two periods. (Because the CEOs’ photographs were not very clear, I looked on Google Street View, and their images are consistent with those of the CEO, save that the shop outside which Mr Simmonds’ car was parked has changed from a beauty salon to a mini cab service.)
The entitlement of disabled badge holders to park on yellow lines derives from the requirements imposed on Enforcement Authorities when drafting their Traffic Management Orders (TMOs) by the Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Exemptions for Disabled Persons) (England and Wales) Regulations 1986 (as amended by the Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Exemptions for Disabled Persons) (England) Regulations 2000). The relevant parts of Regulation 8 read:
(2) An order to which this regulation applies shall include an exemption from the prohibition in accordance with whichever of paragraphs (3) and (4) is appropriate in favour of any vehicle displaying a disabled person's badge in the relevant position.

(3) Where the period of the prohibition does not exceed 3 hours the exemption shall be for the whole of that period.

(4) Where the period of the prohibition exceeds 3 hours the exemption shall be for a period of 3 hours subject to the conditions that-
(a) the period of exempted waiting does not begin less than one hour after a previous period of exempted waiting by the same vehicle in the same road on the same day;

(b) a parking disc is displayed in the relevant position on the vehicle marked to show the quarter hour period during which the period of exempted waiting began.
In simple terms, this means that where the period of the waiting restriction does not exceed 3 hours, only the Blue Badge is required to be displayed; the additional display of the disc or clock is only required when the period of restriction exceeds 3 hours.
There is an inconsistency in the Enforcement Authority’s evidence, in that the CEO’s notes (but not the photographs), the Case Summary and the extract from the TMO produced by the Authority refer to the waiting restrictions being from 7 am to 7 pm. It may be that there is a different TMO that provides for this parking place, with peak hour only restrictions, but in any event a motorist is entitled to rely on the signs adjacent to where he parks, and so I decide this case on the basis that the restriction that applied at this location at the time that Mr Simmonds parked there did not exceed 3 hours. It follows that the display of the Blue Badge alone, without the disc, entitled him to park there.
The appeal is therefore allowed.
[I would nevertheless recommend to Mr Simmonds that out of abundant caution he should always set and display his clock when relying on the Blue Badge.]


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John U.K.
post Fri, 8 Sep 2017 - 09:57
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QUOTE
Not uploaded the 2nd page as it contains information about data protection and how to make representation.


Always worth posting the rest of official docs here as the experts sometimes discover fatal errors in the 'small print'.
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