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dvla clamps
markadams
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 05:56
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I am a car trader, i have motor trade insurance, and all vehicles are purchased via main agents, put `in trade` using the yellow slip, and stay in my custody or control until sold.
Being `in trade` as i recall means i dont have to tax insure the car etc. If the car needs moving, or for demonstration i use trade plates.

I can only keep 7 cars at home so i use a couple of private parking areas. I have a friend with a flat in each so use the many many available parking spaces as i dont have premises. Private car par, private land.

So i went to my cars yesterday and the cars had been clamped, clearly reported to dvla. Maybe dvla hadnt checked they were in trade and it stated they had been reported to dvla and clamped. The company that clamped them i believe is NSL and they have a compound in west bromwich.

A quick look on the gov.uk website tells me these cars need to be sorned, but how can i take a sorned car onto the road for a text drive? Or for an mot?

So this morning i need to make some calls and am asking your incredible brains where i stand with this.

i have read this....

https://www.gov.uk/sorn-statutory-off-road-...n/motor-traders

It doesnt make good reading especially as i dont have `business premises` which actually means i cant park them at home without SORN, and if i do and their on a test drive im then also comitting anoffence


This post has been edited by markadams: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 06:17
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post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 05:56
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localdriver
post Fri, 2 Aug 2019 - 16:57
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QUOTE (KH_ @ Fri, 2 Aug 2019 - 17:18) *
Hmmm, now I have concerns. My car is parked in a shopping centre underground car park. There are flats above the shopping centre. I pay quarterly to park in there at a reduced rate as a tenant of the flats. If you provide your tenancy letter and proof of who you are, you get to park there cheaply. It sounds like 'in the vicinity' of a dwelling house' might cover it. I'd planned to SORN, now I'm not so sure...


The requirement for a valid SORN is that the vehicle must not be used or kept on a public road - s.31B, (3).Vehicles Excise & Registration Act 1994. The reference to 'dwelling house' is in respect of the authority to clamp or remove unlicensed vehicles that are not SORN or otherwise exempt.

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markadams
post Fri, 2 Aug 2019 - 17:05
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What does the `normally enjoyed` mean


QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 2 Aug 2019 - 06:28) *
QUOTE (markadams @ Thu, 1 Aug 2019 - 17:08) *
hi, you seem to be making the most sense, just wondering if you are from or know leamington

Yep, I’ve lived in Leam since 1992......

I’ll free some inbox, most regulars keep it full to stop incessant messages that should be dealt with on the forum.


you have been inboxed
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markadams
post Fri, 2 Aug 2019 - 17:36
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https://i.imgur.com/EUtKi9g.jpg

https://imgur.com/gallery/npalVRN

I have permission by way of a car parking pass to park my vehicle on this land which is clearly private land as it states.

So how can they clamp?

Any anyway, where am i going with this, i clearly need to write to someone, but who is that someone? Is it the dvla as the instructed NSl to clamp?

QUOTE (KH_ @ Fri, 2 Aug 2019 - 17:18) *
Hmmm, now I have concerns. My car is parked in a shopping centre underground car park. There are flats above the shopping centre.
I pay quarterly to park in there at a reduced rate as a tenant of the flats. If you provide your tenancy letter and proof of who you are, you get to park there cheaply.

It sounds like 'in the vicinity' of a dwelling house' might cover it. I'd planned to SORN, now I'm not so sure...


i think youll find, as ive said, they will do as they please, and leave a judge to sort it out as to interpret their meanings.

Bascially what NSL are saying (but dvla arent but their wheelclamping section are) is that if it is on your business premises, or on your drive they wont touch you, anywhere else they will have you IF it has public access, if it is legAL TO do so i would say remove the number plates and cover up the vin, end of problem.

This post has been edited by markadams: Fri, 2 Aug 2019 - 17:29
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666
post Fri, 2 Aug 2019 - 17:52
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Removing the number plates creates an offence under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 199/4, section 42.
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markadams
post Fri, 2 Aug 2019 - 17:59
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QUOTE (666 @ Fri, 2 Aug 2019 - 18:52) *
Removing the number plates creates an offence under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 199/4, section 42.


.......if its your land?
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666
post Fri, 2 Aug 2019 - 20:50
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QUOTE (markadams @ Fri, 2 Aug 2019 - 18:59) *
QUOTE (666 @ Fri, 2 Aug 2019 - 18:52) *
Removing the number plates creates an offence under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 199/4, section 42.


.......if its your land?

Wherever it is.
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markadams
post Sun, 4 Aug 2019 - 07:16
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Have we run aground with this, anyone any further input?
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The Rookie
post Sun, 4 Aug 2019 - 07:19
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Let’s have the google street view links to the locations.

It’s clear to me that the vehicles were incorrectly kept while SORN, but they may have been unlawfully clamped.


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gilan02
post Sun, 4 Aug 2019 - 07:28
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I thought the OP said the car was not SORN?
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localdriver
post Sun, 4 Aug 2019 - 07:47
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[quote name='markadams' date='Sun, 4 Aug 2019 - 08:16' post='1505057'] Have we run aground with this, anyone any further input?

As in my earlier post, it may depend on the interpretation of 'normally enjoyed only by the occupiers of one or more of those dwellings', and their expression of 'public access'. Just because the public can access (the ability to access), does not mean that they have access (the authority to access). So a car park restricted to residents only etc., may not have 'public access'.

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markadams
post Sun, 4 Aug 2019 - 08:12
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 4 Aug 2019 - 08:19) *
Let’s have the google street view links to the locations.

It’s clear to me that the vehicles were incorrectly kept while SORN, but they may have been unlawfully clamped.


The vehicles were not sorn but in trade ie yellow slip sent off to dvla, the dvla then dont chase any back tax as the vehicle needs not be taxed. the tax status is then in limbo until new keeper buys them, the county council have confirmed that neither location is part of the public highway, the baxter court location i have a permit to park there as posted in an earlier message and signs state private car park so therefore cannot be the highways....NSL are saying they have the ability to clamp anywhere except sorn vehicles, ones on a forecourt, or private drive.....although im not certain this is correct or should i say legal, this is what we need to find out

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Frances+H...33;4d-1.5331651

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Baxter+Ct...33;4d-1.5283555

This post has been edited by markadams: Sun, 4 Aug 2019 - 08:15
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localdriver
post Sun, 4 Aug 2019 - 13:33
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QUOTE (markadams @ Sun, 4 Aug 2019 - 09:12) *
NSL are saying they have the ability to clamp anywhere except sorn vehicles, ones on a forecourt, or private drive.....although im not certain this is correct or should i say legal, this is what we need to find out


That is why you need to establish the status of the locations. If the locations comply with Sch. 2A, 1A, (b), Vehicles Excise & Registration Act 1994, they are exempt from clamping, if the locations do not comply, they are not exempt and NSL have the ability to clamp.

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The Rookie
post Sun, 4 Aug 2019 - 15:32
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I think you’ll struggle to argue curtilage for those.... sorry I meant in trade and not SORN.


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markadams
post Sun, 4 Aug 2019 - 16:18
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QUOTE (localdriver @ Sun, 4 Aug 2019 - 14:33) *
QUOTE (markadams @ Sun, 4 Aug 2019 - 09:12) *
NSL are saying they have the ability to clamp anywhere except sorn vehicles, ones on a forecourt, or private drive.....although im not certain this is correct or should i say legal, this is what we need to find out


That is why you need to establish the status of the locations. If the locations comply with Sch. 2A, 1A, (b), Vehicles Excise & Registration Act 1994, they are exempt from clamping, if the locations do not comply, they are not exempt and NSL have the ability to clamp.



tHE STATUS? Yes i can pay for that and will show not part of the public highway....see what the rookie says too

QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 4 Aug 2019 - 16:32) *
I think you’ll struggle to argue curtilage for those.... sorry I meant in trade and not SORN.


Do we actually have the written rule, in this very next post, for me to look at todays ruling (or indeed dvlas last ruling) that is indeed the rule/law we are trying to show is not lawful?

QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 4 Aug 2019 - 16:32) *
I think you’ll struggle to argue curtilage for those.... sorry I meant in trade and not SORN.


Just thinking ahead, how do i put them in my name, and then sorn them, and get no charge at all for ever needing to tax them....i have to send in a v62 and v890 is this the corrrect way forward
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The Rookie
post Sun, 4 Aug 2019 - 17:15
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Read up thread, they cannot clamp within the curtilage of a residence, I think you would struggle to establish they were if you decided to sue for the clamp fee back.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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localdriver
post Sun, 4 Aug 2019 - 18:07
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QUOTE (markadams @ Sun, 4 Aug 2019 - 17:18) *
tHE STATUS? Yes i can pay for that and will show not part of the public highway


Public highway or not is irrelevant. Are the locations 'any place which is within the curtilage of, or in the vicinity of, a building consisting entirely (apart from common parts) of two or more dwellings and which is normally enjoyed only by the occupiers of one or more of those dwellings'? That is what needs to be established. If they are, then the vehicles cannot be clamped, if not, they can.

This post has been edited by localdriver: Sun, 4 Aug 2019 - 21:26
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PickAName
post Sun, 4 Aug 2019 - 20:59
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QUOTE (666 @ Fri, 2 Aug 2019 - 21:50) *
QUOTE (markadams @ Fri, 2 Aug 2019 - 18:59) *
QUOTE (666 @ Fri, 2 Aug 2019 - 18:52) *
Removing the number plates creates an offence under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 199/4, section 42.


.......if its your land?

Wherever it is.

That would mean most bodyshops are committing multiple criminal offences every day of the week.
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The Rookie
post Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 04:52
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Correct.....

There is nothing in the statute that specifies any derogation, clearly a car parked on private property but a place the public has access to will almost certainly be enforced, in your own or a repair garage not, in between there is a grey area.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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markadams
post Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 08:57
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 05:52) *
Correct.....

There is nothing in the statute that specifies any derogation, clearly a car parked on private property but a place the public has access to will almost certainly be enforced, in your own or a repair garage not, in between there is a grey area.


I suppose that is the point that they choose to `ignore` certain things, the guy was very good with me and gave me a bit of insight which is now apparent as i expect there would be uproar if it were follwed to the letter of the law....over coventry...and mr khans and his pals mot/repair shops... there life might be indanger !!

localdriver thankyou for explaining that clearly to me, so i would need to prove what in your eyes? What if my girlfriend lives at baxter court address and i have a permit to park?
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The Rookie
post Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 09:17
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QUOTE (markadams @ Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 09:57) *
What if my girlfriend lives at baxter court address and i have a permit to park?

You'd have to prove it was within the curtilage of a residence - exactly what the statute says! If you did prove that they were wrong to clamp, if you fail to prove that they were well within their rights to. As its a drive through car parking area I very much doubt you'll persuade a court it was within such a curtilage. As it's not your business premises they could still issue a penalty notice regardless.

worth a read
https://www.hewitsons.com/latest/news/meani...d-by-high-court

Full transcript
https://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?d.../2017/1493.html


This post has been edited by The Rookie: Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 09:18


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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