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PCN issued at 70151 station road newham london while the machine was faulty, PCN issued while the machine was faulty
boxer29
post Sat, 20 Apr 2019 - 17:49
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while visiting London and staying in a flat I parked my car in the station road and tried to pay but the machine lcd was giving an error message, I did not had any other option to download the paybyphone app pay with this ,the car ticket expired at around 16.45 and I tried to extend the time by extending the ticket by paying more but the app failed to take money by giving me a message that my parking can not be extended at 16.56.
I tried to move my car but it was sandwiched in two cars so cant move. To my surprise when I saw the parking attended standing next to the car I told him I tried all option to pay and move the car and he can see that I was in no position to move the car as the cars parked in front and rear were so close that it was impossible to move my car without damaging.
the front car was parked in the e charging bay and the vehicle behind was in the bay as it was a parking bay for two cars and the front bays were for the e charging cars.
I have taken all the photos of the machine and a screen shot of my app which will not allow me to extend my parking.
the parking fine was issued at 17.13 and I tried to pay with the app at 16.56 which came with an error "your parking cannot be extended."
I don't want to pay the 80 pounds fine now as I tried my best to extend the parking time by paying the amount for 2 hours which is 3 pounds.
I also rang the parking company and explained to them about the events as I also explained to the parking attended putting the ticket on my car. but he said he has issued the ticket and I can only appeal against it now.
any help how do I complaint about this





This post has been edited by boxer29: Sat, 20 Apr 2019 - 17:50
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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 08:42
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I wrote earlier in this thread that an adjudicator is bound to query why additional time was not purchased so I would agree hca's line that this needs to be bottomed out. There has to be a plausible response to any query from an adjudicator.

I had thought that subsequent payment was prohibited because of a "no return" rule but that is determined on the 1st parking session having expired.

Mick


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boxer29
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 09:47
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 09:42) *
I wrote earlier in this thread that an adjudicator is bound to query why additional time was not purchased so I would agree hca's line that this needs to be bottomed out. There has to be a plausible response to any query from an adjudicator.

I had thought that subsequent payment was prohibited because of a "no return" rule but that is determined on the 1st parking session having expired.

Mick

you mean this sentence by HCA "I returned to my car and was unable to move before falling into contravention by virtue of cars front and rear boxing me in.
This persisted even after the CEO started to prepare the PCN....."

can you people be more precise what are the other things which needed to be drafted in my evidence for the appeal, I also agree here with hca about not able to buy time nor able to move the car as was boxed in.
please do feel free to add any more drafted evidence.
many thanks
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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 10:42
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OP----Are you going to attend the Tribunal or deal with it as a paper submission?

If the latter, all you have to state is that on returning to your vehicle you were unable to move it and sought to buy additional parking time. However the app would not let you do so, because, whilst waiting for others to move blocking vehicles, the original parking session expired. Even though the bay has a two hour limit and you only purchased an hour the phone app obviously defaulted to a "no return" situation and refused further payment.

I don't see the case unravelling on the issue of a further payment since you were unable to move the vehicle within the parking period through to the time of the contravention and afterwards. "Beyond the drivers control" is paramount--- payment or not IMO.


Mick
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boxer29
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 10:56
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 11:42) *
OP----Are you going to attend the Tribunal or deal with it as a paper submission?

If the latter, all you have to state is that on returning to your vehicle you were unable to move it and sought to buy additional parking time. However the app would not let you do so, because, whilst waiting for others to move blocking vehicles, the original parking session expired. Even though the bay has a two hour limit and you only purchased an hour the phone app obviously defaulted to a "no return" situation and refused further payment.

I don't see the case unravelling on the issue of a further payment since you were unable to move the vehicle within the parking period through to the time of the contravention and afterwards. "Beyond the drivers control" is paramount--- payment or not IMO.


Mick

I will deal it with a paper submission as its too far away.
do I just state the above paragraph or do I have to upload any other evidence, my evidence the council pictures are much the same, my pictures do have more weight in showing
that the space was tight as the council have admitted in their evidence.

so I will only upload a paragraph which you have mentioned above.

anyone else do let me know if they want me to add to the evidence which I need to submit before the 23rd October.

many thanks
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hcandersen
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 11:48
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So:
You returned to the car TWICE.

The first time you found...........

You tried to purchase additional time or not? Anyway, you left the location and returned *** minutes later hoping that either of the cars would have moved.

But you found the same situation and the CEO.

As far as the CEO was concerned, you had just arrived.

OP, your problem is one of credibility with the adjudicator because nowhere in your challenge or reps have you mentioned coming to the car at any time prior to the PCN being issued.

Get the facts and timeline clear in your head and present them as they happened. Do NOT second-guess that you might have to say X or present Y in a particular manner, you don't.

Your best and IMO only friend is the truth, so tell it.
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boxer29
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 14:29
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 12:48) *
So:
You returned to the car TWICE.

The first time you found...........

You tried to purchase additional time or not? Anyway, you left the location and returned *** minutes later hoping that either of the cars would have moved.

But you found the same situation and the CEO.

As far as the CEO was concerned, you had just arrived.

OP, your problem is one of credibility with the adjudicator because nowhere in your challenge or reps have you mentioned coming to the car at any time prior to the PCN being issued.

Get the facts and timeline clear in your head and present them as they happened. Do NOT second-guess that you might have to say X or present Y in a particular manner, you don't.

Your best and IMO only friend is the truth, so tell it.

I tried to purchase the time from the app when my time was about to expire, It wont allow me to extend, then I came to move my car and found it to be boxed in,
I tried to look for the drivers of the vehicles in that I had to leave the car to inquire from the shops if someone had parked the car there. in that 10 minutes all this happened.
I did not had any intention to keep the car parked there as I did not have a paid ticket and I could not move the car, this is what I told the CEO.
when I can back I found the CEO finalizing the ticket . I also told him that I cant move my car nor extend my time and I did try to find the drivers but to no success,
he asked me to appeal which I am doing with your help.

Many thanks for your support


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boxer29
post Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 09:53
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Can anyone please help to draft some evidence to submit to the LT
Many thanks
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boxer29
post Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 11:45
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I have found some discrepancies in the submission
1) see point 9 The pcn was issued by on street enforcement and the appellant had a period of 14 days in which to make the 50% discounted payment of £65.
The PCN was for 80pounds and if paid in 14 days the 50% would be £40 not £80.
2) in the traffic management order by Newham London 2014 no 128 partII dESIGNATION OF PARKING PLACES the council mentions in
3 a) the width throughout of 2.1 meters and in 3 b) the width throughout of 1.8 meters THEY HAVE NOT MENTIONED THE ACTAUL LENGTH OF THE BOX OR AT LEAST THE ELNGTH TO COMPARE IF TWO CARS ARE PARKED THERE, HOW MUCH LENGHT WILL THEY TAKE.
3)Installation of tickets parking meters, placing of traffic signs, etc no 14 " the council shall
a) install and maintain in proper working order at least on ticket parking meter in such position as they think fit or in the vicinity of each parking place referred in Schedule 1 or 2
clause b, only states max parking 2 hours it doesnot mention no return with 2 hours ,c and d are ok.
4) Section 2-- Parking Charges 16 and 20 indications by ticket they have only mentioned paper tickets from the pay machine, THEY HAVE NOT MENTIONED THE TICKETS BOUGHT FROM PHONE APPS.

they agree that the space was tight but cant see me trying to move the vehicle , this is evident from me seeing the cEO issuing ticket and trying to explain to him that I cant move as I was boxed in and cant extend my time ..

can some one please comments, add or drat my evidence to appeal against this PCN
many thanks
ps my cars length is 175.98 inches as per BMW website and the other Citroen gran Picasso length is 181.18 inches also mentioned on the cars website. if you look at the picture in which the car is parked behind me its rear wheel is close to the curb I don't know how he managed to get into this space he might have reversed onto the curb and then move forward to fit in the tight space behind me.




my pics of boxed in






This post has been edited by boxer29: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 12:14
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hcandersen
post Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 12:48
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No.

On *** I parked my car wholly within bay markings, paid the appropriate parking fee and left.

At approx. ***, I tried to extend my parking period using the council's app but found that I could not - I subsequently found out something that I should have noticed when I parked, namely that I had already parked for the maximum permitted time.

Not being able to extend my parking period, I returned to my car in order to move to a different location. I arrived at approx. *** which was still within my allowed parking period. However, I could not move my car because it was boxed in front and rear by other cars: a *** behind and a ** ahead. I looked around to see if perhaps one of these drivers was in the vicinity, but could not find anyone.

Having no choice, I returned to **** hoping that if I gave matters *** perhaps one of the cars would have moved and been replaced by someone less inconsiderate.

I returned to the car at approx. *** and found the same situation except that this time a CEO was present.

and then *******

I made representations to the authority on two occasions. In their first reply they stated:

when parking your vehicle, you needed to ensure you left enough space to manoeuver out of the space when you were ready to leave should you have felt you needed more space to carry out this action.

and in their second:

when parking your vehicle, you needed to ensure you left enough space to manoeuvre out of the space when you were ready to leave should you have felt you needed more space to carry out this action.


So exactly the same wording, even to the extent of the same misspelling. (OP, you did not show their first response, you simply quoted an extract. Pl check the exact wording).

I respectfully submit that:
The contravention did not occur because I was unable to move my car out of contravention by virtue of reasons beyond my control;
There has been a procedural impropriety on the part of the authority.

As regards the former, I ask the adjudicator to agree with what the authority have implicitly acknowledged i.e. that I could not move my car out of contravention at the time of the contravention. However, I ask the adjudicator to go further and find that not being able to move my car was beyond my control, contrary to the authority's view that I could and should have foreseen where other vehicles would subsequently park.

As regards the latter, I ask the adjudicator to find that the authority's reasoning was unsound to the extent that they failed to give proper consideration to my representations by virtue of their responses which state that a driver is responsible not just for how they initially leave their car but for every subsequent event, irrespective of whether this could be predicted or when it might occur.


OP, you need to fill in the gaps and only submit if true: we cannot make up a story, only help you present your account to the best effect.



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boxer29
post Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 13:31
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 20 Oct 2019 - 13:48) *
No.

On *** I parked my car wholly within bay markings, paid the appropriate parking fee and left.

At approx. ***, I tried to extend my parking period using the council's app but found that I could not - I subsequently found out something that I should have noticed when I parked, namely that I had already parked for the maximum permitted time.

Not being able to extend my parking period, I returned to my car in order to move to a different location. I arrived at approx. *** which was still within my allowed parking period. However, I could not move my car because it was boxed in front and rear by other cars: a *** behind and a ** ahead. I looked around to see if perhaps one of these drivers was in the vicinity, but could not find anyone.

Having no choice, I returned to **** hoping that if I gave matters *** perhaps one of the cars would have moved and been replaced by someone less inconsiderate.

I returned to the car at approx. *** and found the same situation except that this time a CEO was present.

and then *******

I made representations to the authority on two occasions. In their first reply they stated:

when parking your vehicle, you needed to ensure you left enough space to manoeuver out of the space when you were ready to leave should you have felt you needed more space to carry out this action.

and in their second:

when parking your vehicle, you needed to ensure you left enough space to manoeuvre out of the space when you were ready to leave should you have felt you needed more space to carry out this action.


So exactly the same wording, even to the extent of the same misspelling. (OP, you did not show their first response, you simply quoted an extract. Pl check the exact wording).

I respectfully submit that:
The contravention did not occur because I was unable to move my car out of contravention by virtue of reasons beyond my control;
There has been a procedural impropriety on the part of the authority.

As regards the former, I ask the adjudicator to agree with what the authority have implicitly acknowledged i.e. that I could not move my car out of contravention at the time of the contravention. However, I ask the adjudicator to go further and find that not being able to move my car was beyond my control, contrary to the authority's view that I could and should have foreseen where other vehicles would subsequently park.

As regards the latter, I ask the adjudicator to find that the authority's reasoning was unsound to the extent that they failed to give proper consideration to my representations by virtue of their responses which state that a driver is responsible not just for how they initially leave their car but for every subsequent event, irrespective of whether this could be predicted or when it might occur.


OP, you need to fill in the gaps and only submit if true: we cannot make up a story, only help you present your account to the best effect.


thanks for your reply I will fill in the blanks and upload the letter to the LTportal.
the council first response is exactly the same as the second as you can see the attached files




many thanks for your help, much appreciated
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boxer29
post Fri, 15 Nov 2019 - 20:07
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got the reply from the adjudicator, he has rejected and asked me to pay.
anything i need to do before i pay
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stamfordman
post Fri, 15 Nov 2019 - 20:14
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That's a shame - bad luck. Let's see the rejection.
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cp8759
post Fri, 15 Nov 2019 - 20:23
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Najeeb Chaudhry v London Borough of Newham (2190408770, 31 Oct 2019)
This vehicle on the council’s case was at 17:13 on the relevant date parked in a 2 hour maximum stay bay after the expiry of paid-for time.

There appears to be no dispute that the parking session purchased by the appellant ended at 16:22

The appellant denies that the contravention occurred they returning to the vehicle prior to the expiry of paid for time they being unable to move the vehicle because it was boxed in supporting images being provided. They went to a friend’s flat hoping that in the meantime other vehicles would be moved allowing them to leave. Upon returning to the vehicle at about 17:10 they found the officer at it. They explained the situation to the officer.

I accept on the evidence before me that this vehicle was tightly parked but - on the assumption that the appellant did return to it prior to the expiry of paid for time - I do not accept that they would have been unable to manoeuvre the vehicle out of this bay upon doing so.

I am satisfied that the contravention occurred in this case.

I am not satisfied that any exemption - including that that applies where a motorist is unable to proceed through circumstances beyond their control - is applicable.

The appeal is refused.


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If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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DancingDad
post Fri, 15 Nov 2019 - 20:54
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I'm by no means convinced that anyone could manoeuvre out of the space we see in the photo in post 6.
Diagonal on the car is possibly longer then the space.
But at the same time, don't understand why leave the vehicle for 3 parts of an hour?
I suspect that may be what the adjudicator is saying, had you stayed, chances are you could have got out.
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stamfordman
post Fri, 15 Nov 2019 - 21:00
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I did say that it didn't look that tight to me and I would have got it out. But I think the adjudicator has been a bit mean by not accepting that the OP was not staying there deliberately regardless of the adjudicator's judgement of the mechanics.
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DancingDad
post Fri, 15 Nov 2019 - 21:14
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 15 Nov 2019 - 21:00) *
….. But I think the adjudicator has been a bit mean by not accepting that the OP was not staying there deliberately regardless of the adjudicator's judgement of the mechanics.


Trouble is that once the adjudicator decides the car could come out, then any overstay becomes unnecessary, not beyond the motorist's control.
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Longtime Lurker
post Fri, 15 Nov 2019 - 21:24
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If that's the whole of the rejection then the adjudicator hasn't considered the council's failure to consider. Perhaps that might be worth a follow up?
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boxer29
post Mon, 25 Nov 2019 - 11:11
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thanks for all your help, its been a tiring effort from all you guys but no luck.
Can admin or CP8759 pls remove my name from the decision.



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hcandersen
post Mon, 25 Nov 2019 - 12:12
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Something's odd here.

The OP has told us repeatedly that they 'tried to purchase the time from the app when my time was about to expire, It wont allow me to extend, then I came to move my car and found it to be boxed in, I tried to look for the drivers of the vehicles in that I had to leave the car to inquire from the shops if someone had parked the car there. in that 10 minutes all this happened.'

And then the adj states that it is common ground that the period of parking ended at 16.22 and yet the OP told us in post #1 that it expired 'at around 16.45' and later that they first returned to their car '5 minutes before the parking period expired'.

The adj also stated that the images in support of the OP's contention were provided. What, timed at 16.17?

The OP further stated that they have records of trying to extend parking timed at 16.56 and 17.04. What, while at their friend's flat?

And inquiring in nearby shops became going back to a friend's flat.

Square the above if you can.
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Neil B
post Mon, 25 Nov 2019 - 15:44
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 25 Nov 2019 - 12:12) *
inquiring in nearby shops

There must be over 500 of them and 10s of thousands of people.

Not exactly nearby either.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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