PCN - SM80723580 & SM80723161 - Stockport Metropolitan Borough Council - Driving in Heaton Bus Lane, Received PCN copies from my Rental Company |
PCN - SM80723580 & SM80723161 - Stockport Metropolitan Borough Council - Driving in Heaton Bus Lane, Received PCN copies from my Rental Company |
Fri, 19 May 2023 - 18:11
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 14 Joined: 14 May 2023 Member No.: 119,914 |
I very recently arrived in UK, Februray'23 & had picked up a rental car, and accidently (based on the evidence -photos and video, available on Stockport Council Parking website), drove through the Bus Gate section at Heaton Lane.
This happened on the easter Bank Holiday (10th April'23), where it was pouring quite heavily, and the visibility was not the best. Accidently while approaching Stockport along A560 , and trying to get to the Parking area behind the bus-stand , I mistakenly took the exit on A5145 (Travis Brow), instead of taking the exit to A560 (Great Egerton Street). So to get back to the Stockport Council Parking area behind the Bust Stop, took a left from A6 onto the Heaton lane street (Westbound). I did not realize that it was the Bus Gate section, but by then it was too late to back out, hence could not reverse out. It can be seen in the video, available on the Council site. Also we had a 2-year infant in the car, who needed some personal care, so was desperate to get to the parking lot, hence did not realize that was crossing the Bus gate area. On the same day, later in the evening, while returning from Stockport, while going towards Macclesfield. Took the exit from the car park , and took a left on Great Egerton Street, and onto Heaton lane (Eastbound), passing through the Bus gate area - and this time it was pouring very heavily - can be seen in the video, from where I took a right onto the A6. So I received 2 violations/PCN's, 3 hours apart. Is there a case to appeal? I am not a Stockport resident, and had come from Macclesfield. The rental Agency has charged me an Admin fee (GBP 70), twice GBP 35 each for the 2 violations and have shared my name with the Stockport council to issue the PCN's to me . The council in turn has issued the 2 PCN's in my name , this will be an additional charge of GBP 60 , for each PCN - reduced to GBP 30 each, if paid within 21 days. So in all a total charge of GBP 130 (Admin fees of rental co. + Council Penalty charges). Needed your guidance. Attaching the 2 PCN's received. Details of the PCN are attached. Issuing Agency: STOCKPORT METROPOLITAN BOROUGH COUNCIL Citation Number: SM80723161 Location Of Offense: HEATON LANE BUS GATE WESTBOUND CENTRAL STOCKPORT Citation Issue Date/Time: 10/4/2023 14:49 Plate Number: FG70CCV Web Code: 041BN435 ======================================== Issuing Agency: STOCKPORT METROPOLITAN BOROUGH COUNCIL Citation Number: SM80723580 Location Of Offense: HEATON LANE BUS GATE EASTBOUND CENTRAL STOCKPORT Citation Issue Date/Time: 10/4/2023 17:08 Plate Number: FG70C Web Code: 041BS781
Attached File(s)
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Fri, 19 May 2023 - 18:11
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Sat, 20 May 2023 - 16:30
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
1) A full copy of whatever Enterprise send to the council, 2) Confirmation of whether they ever received a response from the council after they passed on your details. Enterprise will likely not understand why you are asking this, but it is extremely important that you get an answer out of them in writing. Also please post up the 1st page of the two PCNs in your name, just hide your name and address. You might run out of upload space, but see the guidance here: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=147985 Scrap that, both penalties have been paid. Did you pay them or did Enterprise do that? -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sat, 20 May 2023 - 22:21
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 14 Joined: 14 May 2023 Member No.: 119,914 |
1) A full copy of whatever Enterprise send to the council, 2) Confirmation of whether they ever received a response from the council after they passed on your details. Enterprise will likely not understand why you are asking this, but it is extremely important that you get an answer out of them in writing. Also please post up the 1st page of the two PCNs in your name, just hide your name and address. You might run out of upload space, but see the guidance here: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=147985 Scrap that, both penalties have been paid. Did you pay them or did Enterprise do that? I have written an email to the rental company requesting them to provide the details as suggested by you. As I mentioned earlier, the rental company has not paid any penalty fees to the council, they have only charged me GBP 35 each as administration processing charges , so for the 2 PCNs they charged me the administration fee of GBP 70 in total , which is basically a fee that Enterprise has charged me, as they have to process the PCN received from Council, and ask the Council to send the PCN to me. I have received the two PCN's from Stockport Council now on 17th May, asking to pay the PCN fee which is GBP 60 for each PCN, reduced to GBP 30 if paid within 21 days. So I will need to pay up GBP 30 each before the 21 days expire. See attached PCN's received from Stockport Council in my name. Again just to clarify, the PCN fees/charges are yet to be paid, The rental company has only charged me the Administrative fees at their end, and requested Stockport council to reissue the PCN's in my name, which I have now received on 17th May'23. Hope that clarifies. Also I have uploaded the 2 PCN's that were received in my name from Stockport Council on 17th May'23 ,
Attached File(s)
PCN_at_2.49_PM_Afternoon.pdf ( 569.35K )
Number of downloads: 15
PCN_at_5.08_PM_Evening.pdf ( 573.03K ) Number of downloads: 19 |
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Sun, 21 May 2023 - 13:57
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
That is really interesting, in every other case in the country we have ever seen, the PCN number stays the same when liability is transferred. It appears Stockport actually cancels the original PCN completely and issues a new one with a new PCN number, which is arguably the proper way to do things but no other council does this as far as we know.
The videos don't leave much chance of a substantive defence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Cd3GvcWP50 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyK4KpInT6g That being the case, an issue with the transfer of liability is likely the only avenue of appeal. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 21 May 2023 - 21:17
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 14 Joined: 14 May 2023 Member No.: 119,914 |
That is really interesting, in every other case in the country we have ever seen, the PCN number stays the same when liability is transferred. It appears Stockport actually cancels the original PCN completely and issues a new one with a new PCN number, which is arguably the proper way to do things but no other council does this as far as we know. The videos don't leave much chance of a substantive defence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Cd3GvcWP50 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyK4KpInT6g That being the case, an issue with the transfer of liability is likely the only avenue of appeal. Just to understand the legal term , "issue with the transfer of liability" , if you could give some insight about the option, as I am a novice. 1. Any chances or options to look at legality of using term as Bus Gate instead of Bus Lane. Also there was no option to backout once I took a right and entered the Heaton Lane which has the Bus gate. 2. Any option to look at putting up argument regarding not being a local of Stockport ? Weather conditions - Cloudy and Rains ? 2 year child being unwell/crying causing a distraction would help to get some leniency from the council. Also it was a bank holiday, with very minimal Buses being available. Atleast, if there is a chance of waving one of the PCN's of the two, as both incidents/violations happened just hours apart. I will chase /follow up with the Rental company for the documents that were requested. |
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Mon, 22 May 2023 - 09:48
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Just to understand the legal term , "issue with the transfer of liability" , if you could give some insight about the option, as I am a novice. Go to https://bit.ly/2AR0JNg and look at the cases on rows 10 to 24 (click the link in column D to open the decision). 1. Any chances or options to look at legality of using term as Bus Gate instead of Bus Lane. Also there was no option to backout once I took a right and entered the Heaton Lane which has the Bus gate. None, the term bus gate is legally permitted. 2. Any option to look at putting up argument regarding not being a local of Stockport ? Absolutely none, you have to take local laws and regulations as you find them. That would be no different to me trying to argue that I should be able to do 60 mph on a road in Norway because I'm not from there (the national speed limit in Norway is 50 mph on single carriageways). Weather conditions - Cloudy and Rains ? The video shows the weather is not that bad, and the signs were perfectly visible. If someone drove onto the exit ramp from a motorway past the no entry signs, do you think they'd get away with it by saying it was raining / cloudy? 2 year child being unwell/crying causing a distraction would help to get some leniency from the council. You can ask for leniency but legally a crying child is neither here nor there. Also it was a bank holiday, with very minimal Buses being available. If it's 2:30 am I could safely drive round the M25 at 130 mph, after all there's often nobody around at that time and you can get 5 empty, fully lit lanes. As you might imagine, that would be no excuse for exceeding the 70 mph limit, and the fact that there are minimal buses on a bank holiday is similarly no excuse. Atleast, if there is a chance of waving one of the PCN's of the two, as both incidents/violations happened just hours apart. You can ask the council to show some leniency and cancel one of them, but legally they could enforce both if they want to. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 25 May 2023 - 22:40
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 14 Joined: 14 May 2023 Member No.: 119,914 |
Just to understand the legal term , "issue with the transfer of liability" , if you could give some insight about the option, as I am a novice. Go to https://bit.ly/2AR0JNg and look at the cases on rows 10 to 24 (click the link in column D to open the decision). 1. Any chances or options to look at legality of using term as Bus Gate instead of Bus Lane. Also there was no option to backout once I took a right and entered the Heaton Lane which has the Bus gate. None, the term bus gate is legally permitted. 2. Any option to look at putting up argument regarding not being a local of Stockport ? Absolutely none, you have to take local laws and regulations as you find them. That would be no different to me trying to argue that I should be able to do 60 mph on a road in Norway because I'm not from there (the national speed limit in Norway is 50 mph on single carriageways). Weather conditions - Cloudy and Rains ? The video shows the weather is not that bad, and the signs were perfectly visible. If someone drove onto the exit ramp from a motorway past the no entry signs, do you think they'd get away with it by saying it was raining / cloudy? 2 year child being unwell/crying causing a distraction would help to get some leniency from the council. You can ask for leniency but legally a crying child is neither here nor there. Also it was a bank holiday, with very minimal Buses being available. If it's 2:30 am I could safely drive round the M25 at 130 mph, after all there's often nobody around at that time and you can get 5 empty, fully lit lanes. As you might imagine, that would be no excuse for exceeding the 70 mph limit, and the fact that there are minimal buses on a bank holiday is similarly no excuse. Atleast, if there is a chance of waving one of the PCN's of the two, as both incidents/violations happened just hours apart. You can ask the council to show some leniency and cancel one of them, but legally they could enforce both if they want to. I wrote to the Rental Agency asking for the following: 1) A full copy of whatever you (Enterprise) sent to the council, when you received the PCN's from the council. 2) Confirmation of whether you ever received a response from the Stockport council after you passed on my details, stating that it was me driving the car. Initial response from them was that they shared the same PCN's that were received by them from Stockport council (which I attached initially), so I requested them once again to provide the above mentioned documents/communication , to which got the following reply from the Rental Agency : "Good afternoon Thank you for your email. Please be advised we have sent the PCN copies , to you relating to your rental. We are unable to provide any other correspondence being the registered keeper. As we have advised in our previous correspondence , your details have been sent to the issuing agency for transfer of liability , we have not received further correspondence from the issuing agency. i hope this clarifes the matter. " Kindly help on what can I do next.. I have seen your response to each of my arguments, thanks for your responses. But kindly guide what shoud I do next? Thanks Rahul |
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Sun, 28 May 2023 - 14:23
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Send representations as follows (you must challenge each PCN seperately):
Dear Stockport Metropolitan Borough Council,If the council rejects drop me a PM and I'll sort out the tribunal appeal for you. Do not try and appeal to the tribunal on your own without our help. This post has been edited by cp8759: Sun, 28 May 2023 - 14:23 -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Tue, 30 May 2023 - 22:25
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 14 Joined: 14 May 2023 Member No.: 119,914 |
Send representations as follows (you must challenge each PCN seperately): Dear Stockport Metropolitan Borough Council,If the council rejects drop me a PM and I'll sort out the tribunal appeal for you. Do not try and appeal to the tribunal on your own without our help. Hello, Just for my understanding, before I respond to the Stockport Council, as mentioned above, I did sign an agreement/contract with the rental Agency, that any tickets/penalties that are sent to the rental company , during the rental period will be directed to me, and I will be liable & would need to pay the penalties plus the rental co. administration charges. So to your point that I never owned the vehicle concerned at any point , wont the Council get the details of the contract from the rental agency, which clearly showed the period of time that I had rented the vehicle? To the other point , that it was beyond the 28 days limitation period , the original notice was sent out to Rental agency on 17th April by Stockport council, and I was informed about the PCN on 25th April by the rental agency (they shared the PCN's which i attached in my Initial request), post which the rental agency sent me a follow up email, stating the Administration charges that they charged my Credit card on 29th April, post which they sent the Representation to the council to send/address the PCN to me, as I was renting the vehicle, and as per the agreement I am responsible for all traffic violations. So is there really a miss of the 28 days limitation by the Council? Also in case the council goes back to the Rental Agency to pay the PCN charges, would the rental Agency not share the Agreement with the Stockport Council? Any clarity/insights on this would be helpful. Also should I really go for the appeal, as I have recently arrived here, and not sure if I will need to present myself in court, etc.., the legal hassles? What is the probability that the Council will take this case up with the tribunal? Dont get me wrong , but asking these questions, as I am not aware about the legal proceedings, and so on. Thanks Also attaching the text of the initial email that I received from the Agency.. On 25th April: Dear Customer, Please find attached details of a traffic violation received during a recent rental. Please review the documents attached, which will provide all of the information you need. Yours Sincerely Traffic Violations Department Enterprise Holdings Then on 29th April, they sent the following email Dear Enterprise Customer, We recently notified you that your rental vehicle incurred a traffic violation or toll during your rental period. In accordance with the terms of your rental agreement, you are responsible for all traffic violations and toll charges incurred during your rental period. In addition, as provided by your your rental agreement we are applying a fee towards the costs of administering the incurred traffic violation and/or tolls during your rental period. We collected these charges and/or the fee from the credit card used on the rental, on 29/4/2023. Please see below for more details: Issuing Agency: STOCKPORT METROPOLITAN BOROUGH COUNCIL Renter Name: xxxxxxxxx Invoice Type: Admin Fee Rental Agreement: 9D6S8M Citation Number: SM80723580 Rental Start Date/Time: 08/04/2023 09:49 Location Of Offense: HEATON LANE BUS GATE EASTBOUND CENTRAL STOCKPORT Rental End Date/Time: 11/04/2023 09:30 Citation Issue Date/Time: 10/4/2023 17:08 Plate Number: FG70CCV Fee Due: GBP 35.00 Plate State: Citation/Toll Amount Due: GBP 0.00 Issuing Agency: STOCKPORT METROPOLITAN BOROUGH COUNCIL Renter Name: xxxxxx Invoice Type: Admin Fee Rental Agreement: 9D6S8M Citation Number: SM80723161 Rental Start Date/Time: 08/04/2023 09:49 Location Of Offense: HEATON LANE BUS GATE WESTBOUND CENTRAL STOCKPORT Rental End Date/Time: 11/04/2023 09:30 Citation Issue Date/Time: 10/4/2023 14:49 Plate Number: FG70CCV Fee Due: GBP 35.00 Plate State: Citation/Toll Amount Due: GBP 0.00 Total Amount Collected (may include taxes): GBP 70.00 You may be able to view the photographic evidence online. Please follow the instructions on the issuing agency website. Please contact the Traffic Violation Department DRFines@ehi.com for any queries. To appeal this fine, please present this letter directly to the Issuing Agency. Please accept this document as confirmation that Enterprise Rent-A-Car authorise the issuing agent to communicate directly with the nominated person in relation to the notice issued during the vehicle hire period. Yours Sincerely, Traffic Violations Department Enterprise Holdings Operating Enterprise Rent-A-Car |
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Wed, 31 May 2023 - 13:54
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I did sign an agreement/contract with the rental Agency, that any tickets/penalties that are sent to the rental company , during the rental period will be directed to me, and I will be liable & would need to pay the penalties plus the rental co. administration charges. So to your point that I never owned the vehicle concerned at any point , wont the Council get the details of the contract from the rental agency, which clearly showed the period of time that I had rented the vehicle? That's what the council did in the first place, but it's besides the point: the council has committed a procedural impropriety and once that happens it's game over, they can't go back to the hire company and try again. To the other point , that it was beyond the 28 days limitation period , the original notice was sent out to Rental agency on 17th April by Stockport council, and I was informed about the PCN on 25th April by the rental agency (they shared the PCN's which i attached in my Initial request), post which the rental agency sent me a follow up email, stating the Administration charges that they charged my Credit card on 29th April, post which they sent the Representation to the council to send/address the PCN to me, as I was renting the vehicle, and as per the agreement I am responsible for all traffic violations. So is there really a miss of the 28 days limitation by the Council? Also in case the council goes back to the Rental Agency to pay the PCN charges, would the rental Agency not share the Agreement with the Stockport Council? No and no. If the council had cancelled the original PCN by notifying the rental agency that their PCN had been cancelled, then they get another 28 days from the date of cancellation to issue a new PCN to you. If they didn't bother writing back to the hire company at all, the new PCN issued to you is simply out of time and it's too late for the council to do anything about it now. The fact that they could have lawfully served a PCN on you if they had cancelled the original PCNs is irrelevant, because that is not what actually happened. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 31 May 2023 - 19:05
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 14 Joined: 14 May 2023 Member No.: 119,914 |
I did sign an agreement/contract with the rental Agency, that any tickets/penalties that are sent to the rental company , during the rental period will be directed to me, and I will be liable & would need to pay the penalties plus the rental co. administration charges. So to your point that I never owned the vehicle concerned at any point , wont the Council get the details of the contract from the rental agency, which clearly showed the period of time that I had rented the vehicle? That's what the council did in the first place, but it's besides the point: the council has committed a procedural impropriety and once that happens it's game over, they can't go back to the hire company and try again. To the other point , that it was beyond the 28 days limitation period , the original notice was sent out to Rental agency on 17th April by Stockport council, and I was informed about the PCN on 25th April by the rental agency (they shared the PCN's which i attached in my Initial request), post which the rental agency sent me a follow up email, stating the Administration charges that they charged my Credit card on 29th April, post which they sent the Representation to the council to send/address the PCN to me, as I was renting the vehicle, and as per the agreement I am responsible for all traffic violations. So is there really a miss of the 28 days limitation by the Council? Also in case the council goes back to the Rental Agency to pay the PCN charges, would the rental Agency not share the Agreement with the Stockport Council? No and no. If the council had cancelled the original PCN by notifying the rental agency that their PCN had been cancelled, then they get another 28 days from the date of cancellation to issue a new PCN to you. If they didn't bother writing back to the hire company at all, the new PCN issued to you is simply out of time and it's too late for the council to do anything about it now. The fact that they could have lawfully served a PCN on you if they had cancelled the original PCNs is irrelevant, because that is not what actually happened. Apologies Again. I just checked the original PCN that was served to the Rental Agency, on the council website and it shows that the Outstanding as GBP 0, it earlier used to show up as GBP 60 , which indicates that the original PCN 'SM80723161"has been closed , and the new one has been addressed to me. Is that not the case? So not sure when you mentioned that the "original PCN is not cancelled", and the 28 days post cancellation is when they have sent me the new PCN. Also the rental agency did not share any information with me, when I requested them to share the details of the communication between them and the council, when the PCN was received by the agency, they only responded as mentioned below , which in no way can confirm that the council did not send them the response that the original PCN stands cancelled "Good afternoon Thank you for your email. Please be advised we have sent the PCN copies , to you relating to your rental. We are unable to provide any other correspondence being the registered keeper. As we have advised in our previous correspondence , your details have been sent to the issuing agency for transfer of liability , we have not received further correspondence from the issuing agency. i hope this clarrifes the matter. " Also to your other point that you mentioned below , could you let me know what's the procedural impropriety the council has committed. "That's what the council did in the first place, but it's besides the point: the council has committed a procedural impropriety and once that happens it's game over, they can't go back to the hire company and try again." Again I am not challenging any of your arguments/response, just trying to understand what response we are planning to send to the council. Also in case they reject my representation, will I get an opportunity to pay the reduced fine (the 50% reduction if paid within 21 days), assuming that 21 days time period is over by when they respond to my representation , or do you think they will not reject the representation and cancel the PCN, for the reasons that you have mentioned. Should I add any additional details to the representation, like the weather was bad (rains), 2 PCN's in the same day and ask for leniency? (Which you had provided your feedback earlier) |
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Sat, 3 Jun 2023 - 11:38
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Legally to cancel a PCN, they need to send a Notice of Acceptance to the registered keeper, otherwise the registered keeper wouldn't know it's been cancelled. Simply amending the PCN statuts on the computer has no legal effect.
The procedural impropriety the council has committed is the sending of a second PCN outside of the legal time limit, and outside of the circumstances where the regulations authorise service of a second PCN. The response to send to the council is in post 8 above and my advice is to stick to what has been drafted. I do not think the council will cancel the PCNs, I think they will reject, we then appeal to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal and they will either fold at that stage, or we'll win the appeal. In virtually all technical appeal cases like this one, the PCN only gets cancelled a the tribunal stage. While it is likely the council will re-offer the discount when they reject (to give you an incentive not to appeal to the tribunal), if you're likely to give up in the face of a Notice of Rejection then you might as well just pay the discount now, I don't want to labour the point but the only way you'll get these cancelled is by appealing to the tribunal. That being said, I've already offered to handle the tribunal appeal for you, and these are the results from my last 50 cases: While I clearly don't win everything, those of us who do this regularly win 85 to 90% of cases. Appealing to the tribunal is free and there are no costs. This post has been edited by cp8759: Sat, 3 Jun 2023 - 11:39 -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sat, 3 Jun 2023 - 16:00
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,060 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
If I may just put this into the mix.
The duty of the authority is: 4) The requirements mentioned in paragraph (3) are that enforcement authority must— (a)consider the representations and any supporting evidence which the recipient provides, and (b)serve on the recipient a notice of its decision (a “decision notice”) which states whether or not it accepts the representations made by the recipient. (5) If the enforcement authority accepts the representations— (a)it must cancel the relevant enforcement notice, (b)its decision notice must state that the enforcement notice has been cancelled, and ©when it serves the decision notice, it must refund any sum paid in relation to the relevant enforcement notice. As cp observed, this case is rare in that the original enforcement notice has in fact been cancelled. What the authority appear to have not done is to serve notice of this decision. But this does not change the fact that the decision has been taken and the enforcement notice has been cancelled. The regs further provide: 8)The cancellation of an enforcement notice under this regulation does not prevent the enforcement authority from serving a new enforcement notice on another person in accordance with the 2022 General Regulations. Which must give rise to the question: what trigger action is the authority required to take before they may procedurally issue a 'new enforcement notice on another person'? Is it the cancellation of the previous notice or is it serving notice of the cancellation? As far as I can see, of the cited cases(rows 10-24) none applies to a post May-2022 decision outside London, which is what this is. Views? |
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Sat, 3 Jun 2023 - 21:40
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 14 Joined: 14 May 2023 Member No.: 119,914 |
Legally to cancel a PCN, they need to send a Notice of Acceptance to the registered keeper, otherwise the registered keeper wouldn't know it's been cancelled. Simply amending the PCN statuts on the computer has no legal effect. The procedural impropriety the council has committed is the sending of a second PCN outside of the legal time limit, and outside of the circumstances where the regulations authorise service of a second PCN. The response to send to the council is in post 8 above and my advice is to stick to what has been drafted. I do not think the council will cancel the PCNs, I think they will reject, we then appeal to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal and they will either fold at that stage, or we'll win the appeal. In virtually all technical appeal cases like this one, the PCN only gets cancelled a the tribunal stage. While it is likely the council will re-offer the discount when they reject (to give you an incentive not to appeal to the tribunal), if you're likely to give up in the face of a Notice of Rejection then you might as well just pay the discount now, I don't want to labour the point but the only way you'll get these cancelled is by appealing to the tribunal. That being said, I've already offered to handle the tribunal appeal for you, and these are the results from my last 50 cases: While I clearly don't win everything, those of us who do this regularly win 85 to 90% of cases. Appealing to the tribunal is free and there are no costs. Thanks for sharing the information. Sir on your point "Legally to cancel a PCN, they need to send a Notice of Acceptance to the registered keeper, otherwise the registered keeper wouldn't know it's been cancelled. Simply amending the PCN statuts on the computer has no legal effect." How can we be sure that they (the council) did not send a Notice of Acceptance to the registered keeper at the Rental Agency? I already shared the response that I received from the Agency on the 2 questions that you had asked me to put to them (about the communication they had with Council when the PCN's were received by them), they are not willing to share/divulge any further details except that they requested the Council to send the PCN to me, as I was legally the owner of the rental car , as per the contract. As you had mentioned earlier, if they have sent the cancellation notice to the Agency, then they have again 28 days to send a PCN to me, which they have done, so how can we be sure that the Notice Of Acceptance was not sent. The procedural impropriety the council has committed is the sending of a second PCN outside of the legal time limit, and outside of the circumstances where the regulations authorise service of a second PCN." Again as you had mentioned that if the earlier PCN was cancelled then they have sent me the PCN within the stipulated time of 28 days, would that not be legal? Also as I mentioned , I have recently arrived in UK, just to understand, Do we have to be present in court , in front of the tribunal, or is it all online? Also what would be your legal fees, in case you contest on my behalf at the tribunal? Also what happens in case we lose at the tribunal? Will I have to bear all the legal expenses for all parties? Is there an option to pay up now the reduced fee, and also contest the PCN in parallel? As I also had mentioned earlier, once you turn on the Heaton Park Lane road, there is no way to backout, even if the driver has seen board about the Bus Gate, should the council not be putting up enough signs before hand , stating that the Heaton Lane has a Bus Gate? I do not recollect seeing any such signs prior to my turning onto the Heaton Lane, may be I may have missed it? But anyway leaving that besides, if you can help with my above queries on the tribunal proceeding, and the 28 days time stipulation, it would be very helpful. I am willing to go to the tribunal, based on your response. Thanks Again |
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Sun, 4 Jun 2023 - 01:39
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
How can we be sure that they (the council) did not send a Notice of Acceptance to the registered keeper at the Rental Agency? We cannot be certain, but very, very few councils do this, and all the ones we know of are based in London. It's unlikely anyone has taken Stockport to task on this point. We cannot be 100% certain though. Do we have to be present in court , in front of the tribunal, or is it all online? The tribunal does all hearings online via Microsoft Teams. If I'm representing you, then you don't need to take part. Also what would be your legal fees, in case you contest on my behalf at the tribunal? There are no fees, see my signature below. Also what happens in case we lose at the tribunal? Will I have to bear all the legal expenses for all parties? No, if you lose you are liable for the PCN at the normal (not discounted) rate, there are no further costs aside from that. Is there an option to pay up now the reduced fee, and also contest the PCN in parallel? No, otherwise everyone would appeal everything whether they have a case or not, as there'd be nothing to lose. As I also had mentioned earlier, once you turn on the Heaton Park Lane road, there is no way to backout, even if the driver has seen board about the Bus Gate, should the council not be putting up enough signs before hand , stating that the Heaton Lane has a Bus Gate? I do not recollect seeing any such signs prior to my turning onto the Heaton Lane, may be I may have missed it? We can certainly put the council to proof about the adequacy of the signage. Compared to London adjudicators, the Traffic Penalty Tribunal adjudicators are a bit soft on questions of signage. I am willing to go to the tribunal, based on your response. Then you need to make the representation in post 8 against each PCN. This post has been edited by cp8759: Sun, 4 Jun 2023 - 01:39 -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Mon, 5 Jun 2023 - 16:10
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 14 Joined: 14 May 2023 Member No.: 119,914 |
If I may just put this into the mix. The duty of the authority is: 4) The requirements mentioned in paragraph (3) are that enforcement authority must— (a)consider the representations and any supporting evidence which the recipient provides, and (b)serve on the recipient a notice of its decision (a “decision notice”) which states whether or not it accepts the representations made by the recipient. (5) If the enforcement authority accepts the representations— (a)it must cancel the relevant enforcement notice, (b)its decision notice must state that the enforcement notice has been cancelled, and ©when it serves the decision notice, it must refund any sum paid in relation to the relevant enforcement notice. As cp observed, this case is rare in that the original enforcement notice has in fact been cancelled. What the authority appear to have not done is to serve notice of this decision. But this does not change the fact that the decision has been taken and the enforcement notice has been cancelled. The regs further provide: 8)The cancellation of an enforcement notice under this regulation does not prevent the enforcement authority from serving a new enforcement notice on another person in accordance with the 2022 General Regulations. Which must give rise to the question: what trigger action is the authority required to take before they may procedurally issue a 'new enforcement notice on another person'? Is it the cancellation of the previous notice or is it serving notice of the cancellation? As far as I can see, of the cited cases(rows 10-24) none applies to a post May-2022 decision outside London, which is what this is. Views? So @hcandersen, are you stating that the Council has legally done the right thing , from the regulations perspective, by issuing new PCN's it implies that the old ones have indeed been cancelled. And as per the 2022 General Regulations, council is entitled to serve new PCN, irrespective if the earlier Cancellation notice has been sent or not. So even if we assume cancellation notice has not been sent to the Rental Agency. Do I realistically stand a chance based on earlier precedence, or this would not work as I have no proof of what correspondence has taken place between the Rental Agency and the council. Thanks How can we be sure that they (the council) did not send a Notice of Acceptance to the registered keeper at the Rental Agency? We cannot be certain, but very, very few councils do this, and all the ones we know of are based in London. It's unlikely anyone has taken Stockport to task on this point. We cannot be 100% certain though. Do we have to be present in court , in front of the tribunal, or is it all online? The tribunal does all hearings online via Microsoft Teams. If I'm representing you, then you don't need to take part. Also what would be your legal fees, in case you contest on my behalf at the tribunal? There are no fees, see my signature below. Also what happens in case we lose at the tribunal? Will I have to bear all the legal expenses for all parties? No, if you lose you are liable for the PCN at the normal (not discounted) rate, there are no further costs aside from that. Is there an option to pay up now the reduced fee, and also contest the PCN in parallel? No, otherwise everyone would appeal everything whether they have a case or not, as there'd be nothing to lose. As I also had mentioned earlier, once you turn on the Heaton Park Lane road, there is no way to backout, even if the driver has seen board about the Bus Gate, should the council not be putting up enough signs before hand , stating that the Heaton Lane has a Bus Gate? I do not recollect seeing any such signs prior to my turning onto the Heaton Lane, may be I may have missed it? We can certainly put the council to proof about the adequacy of the signage. Compared to London adjudicators, the Traffic Penalty Tribunal adjudicators are a bit soft on questions of signage. I am willing to go to the tribunal, based on your response. Then you need to make the representation in post 8 against each PCN. Thanks @cp8759. I will proceed with the challenge, but would you look into the argument/view stated by @hcandersen, and if you think based on it, I stand a chance to win the case , if taken to tribunal? 1. Does serving a new PCN , represent that the original PCN has been cancelled? Or does a Notice Of Acceptance needs to be communicated to the Rental Agency(As per the 2022 Regulation). If the council has done so, then what are the probability of a win from our end? 2. Should I go back to the Agency , asking specifically if they have received any cancellation communication? Thanks |
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Tue, 6 Jun 2023 - 22:20
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 14 Joined: 14 May 2023 Member No.: 119,914 |
Also just to add, when I went online to Challenge the PCN , it gives me 2 options
1. Informal Challenge : (To be made prior to issue of a Notice To Owner) - It states that IF you make a challenge within 14 days of the date on which PCN was issued and your challenge is rejected , the discount period will be reset for a further period of 14 days from the date of the rejection letter. 2. Representation (To be made after the issue of a Notice To Owner) - It states that IF PCN is not responded to within 28 days of the date on which it was served a Notice To Owner (NTO) will be sent . If you have received a NTO and wish to make a representation then click here) When I went for the Option 1., i.e. Informal Challenge, got the following message Informal Challenge Denied It would appear you have already been sent a Notice to Owner. At this time you can only make a Formal Representation. Please click here to make a Formal Representation. You will need your web code which was supplied on the Notice to Owner. Shall I proceed with a formal representation? Again just wanted to mention that I never received any Notice To Owner , I only received the PCN by post, which I had attached earlier. So Why is it stating that a NTO was served to me. I can still see the outstanding to be paid as GBP 30 , for each of the PCN's. So shall I proceed with the Formal Representation? |
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Tue, 6 Jun 2023 - 22:31
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 20,915 Joined: 22 Apr 2012 Member No.: 54,455 |
Bus lane PCNs are postal, so also act as Notice to Owner. So proceed with the Formal Representatioin. Clearly their website is rubbish, (as usual for most councils). Only parking contraventions where a PCN has been issued at the roadside involve Notice to Owner, yet the council web managment don't seem to know this, or nobody has told them !
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Tue, 6 Jun 2023 - 22:50
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 14 Joined: 14 May 2023 Member No.: 119,914 |
Just an update. I have made the representations to the 2 PCN's received, and have received a reference number for each of them.
Now will need to wait for the response from the Enforcement Agency. Thanks |
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Sun, 18 Jun 2023 - 11:58
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Thread continued here: https://www.ftla.uk/civil-penalty-charge-no...eaton-bus-lane/
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: Thursday, 28th March 2024 - 16:19 |