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Was the Traffic Warden over zealous?
Nelix
post Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 15:47
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Well, I was unfortunate enough to get a parking ticket..... back in Oct, I never had a ticket on my windscreen and have since received a letter from the council with pictures showing the ticket in place so I'm assuming a really funny passerby thought it would be hilarious to remove it. Anyway, I think the traffic warden was being overzealous when he issues the ticket and thought I would drop in here to see what you guys thought and hopefully get some advice on how to proceed.

I'll provide pics where I can

This is the letter:




Here's the pic of the car parked outside the bay and the parking ticket on the windscreen:








The only signage is shown here on the access road:






And here is an overhead picture showing where I was parked (in Red) and the location of the sign (in Blue):






The venue is owned or at least ran by Everyone Active which is somehow connected to the council. I know that I am unable to appeal on the grounds of there being nowhere else to park, however, the Council/Everyone Active had arranged 3 different competitive events at this small venue which clearly has insufficient visit facilities on the same day, the main car park and the overflow car park where filled to capacity.


Anyway, My argument is that I was not blocking the access road (as per the sign states not to do) and was not even in the car park, I was not causing any access or egress issues for members of the public or the emergency services. The land that I was parked on is apparently council owned so I don't think I have much of a chance but it's worth a try as it is my first parking offence.

I hate all these parking regulations that have come in to force where I live, I now have to pay for a residents permit to park outside my own home after 18 years of not having to due to living near the local hospital, I appealed against the scheme but it was approved anyway, I even have to schedule visitors to my home so they are outside the parking restriction times to avoid them getting a parking ticket or I have to buy visitor permits at £10 for a book of 10 and they are not transferable as I have to write the vehicle reg and date on them. I hate my council, I'll say no more as my blood is starting to boil.


Any advise that can be offered would be much appreciated.

Kind Regards

Nelix
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post Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 15:47
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Incandescent
post Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 17:35
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Obviously the council don't want their lovely grass sullied by your motor ! If the sign is where it is, and you pass it to park, then you are probably bang-to-rights, but they can only enforce against an order that establishes parking there. As you have a Notice to Owner, you might submit reps that you never received the original PCN and also whatever you want to say about not parking in an obstructive way etc etc. They may re-offer the discount, but will almost certainly reject your reps. It will be worth examining the Order for the car park, as it may not cover the grassed areas.
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Nelix
post Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 20:02
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 17:35) *
Obviously the council don't want their lovely grass sullied by your motor ! If the sign is where it is, and you pass it to park, then you are probably bang-to-rights, but they can only enforce against an order that establishes parking there. As you have a Notice to Owner, you might submit reps that you never received the original PCN and also whatever you want to say about not parking in an obstructive way etc etc. They may re-offer the discount, but will almost certainly reject your reps. It will be worth examining the Order for the car park, as it may not cover the grassed areas.



Thanks, I think your right that I am Bang-to-rights.

Where would I get a copy of the Order for the car park and i'll take a look?

Nelix
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stamfordman
post Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 20:07
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where is this
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cabbyman
post Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 20:28
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https://goo.gl/maps/bRiCSBMDkcv


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Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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cp8759
post Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 23:03
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Don't know if it's just me but all the images in the opening post have disappeared?


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DastardlyDick
post Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 23:14
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 23:03) *
Don't know if it's just me but all the images in the opening post have disappeared?

No, it's not just you - I can't see them either!
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cp8759
post Fri, 14 Dec 2018 - 23:24
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Nelix, re-upload to imgur.com and post a link


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Mad Mick V
post Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 09:09
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This is the 2nd one recently for the Silksworth complex :-

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t&p=1438252

As with the 1st one it would be necessary to get hold of the Order although I think this one is more clear cut and the OP is on the back foot.

Mick
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Nelix
post Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 10:07
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 09:09) *
This is the 2nd one recently for the Silksworth complex :-

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...t&p=1438252

As with the 1st one it would be necessary to get hold of the Order although I think this one is more clear-cut and the OP is on the back foot.

Mick


I believe I am on the back foot too. There was never a problem with parking here and even though some people parked outside of the bays, everyone was respectful and ensured that there was good access and egress at all times, this is a popular venue and even with the overflow car park, the parking is insufficient at times for the visitor numbers experienced. It's only the last few months that the Council have seen an opportunity to take advantage of the parking and generate some cash.

I too am unable to find a copy of the order relating to this car park anywhere online or on the council website.

The council try and encourage people to use facilities but do not provide adequate parking (amongst other things) for visitors so people stop using them, then they wonder why!!


I am able to see all of the above images without any issue, not sure why some of you can't see them.

Regards

Nelix

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Mad Mick V
post Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 12:46
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What I would be looking for is the extent of the "Parking place".

What that means is that the Council's off street order should have a map which delineates the parking place. If you were not in that area then the contravention cannot apply.

Most off street orders specify that the vehicle must be wholly within a bay. So even if you were miles away from a bay or had no intention of parking in a bay they can use this "default" to nab you.

I would write a cheeky letter to that wind tunnel of a civic centre and say that you never received the PCN since someone unknown removed it. Therefore as a victim of a criminal act you had no chance to settle at the discount before the NTO arrived. Ergo this is unfair and prejudicial so you request that the Council use their discretion and re-offer the discount.

Mick
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cp8759
post Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 18:07
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I would separately contact the council's highways department and ask for a copy of the off-street order for that car park.


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Nelix
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 09:59
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 18:07) *
I would separately contact the council's highways department and ask for a copy of the off-street order for that car park.



Just thought I would update everyone on this post and ask a little further advice relating to the Off-Street Order.

I spoke with the council and explained that the ticket had been removed from my vehicle and I was unaware of the offence until the NTO arrived, they allowed me to pay the lower/discounted amount if I paid immediately, this I did and the matter is now resolved.

However, I did request a copy of the off-street order, just to satisfy my curiosity in relation as to where the order covered. Having read the order I am none the wiser and was hoping someone with more understanding in these matters might take a look at it and let me know if the order covers the area outside of the actual car park (grassed area).

Here is the order:
Off Street Order


Kind Regards
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cp8759
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 13:28
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You would need to ask if there are any maps associated with the order but at first glance I can't see anything wrong with it.


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Nelix
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 14:00
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 13:28) *
You would need to ask if there are any maps associated with the order but at first glance I can't see anything wrong with it.


I have asked if there are any maps relating to this order and am awaiting a response. I will update once a response is received.

Cheers
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Nelix
post Sun, 3 Feb 2019 - 08:39
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 13:28) *
You would need to ask if there are any maps associated with the order but at first glance, I can't see anything wrong with it.


Well, the council eventually sent me the map for the off-street order, from what I am seeing, I was not parked in the Red Zone which would mean the off-street order does not apply so I should be able to claim the cost of the parking ticket back, or am I missing something.



What's everyones thoughts?

And is there a template letter I could use?
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Redivi
post Sun, 3 Feb 2019 - 09:13
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Payment of the penalty notice is an admission of the offence

You're unlikely to get a refund but you could wipe out the council's profit by taking them through their full complaints procedure

An option to consider is to park in the exact spot again and take it through the appeal process with the benefit of the Order
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DancingDad
post Sun, 3 Feb 2019 - 13:13
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I would send it as a complaint via council customer services.

Dear Sirs
I received a Notice to Owner for allegedly contravening parking rules at ????
Having not found a PCN on the vehicle, I admit that I jumped at the chance to settle at the discounted value that was offered by your Parking Department.
Especially as it was made as a one time offer while I was on the phone to the parking dept (date and time ???? Name of person ??)
I have however found that the relevant parking places order and associated map (supplied by Sunderland ???? Dept) does not include the area where I was parked and as such the PCN was served incorrectly and subsequent enforcement and penalty had no basis against the relevant order.
This is information that was not available to myself at the time, had it been I would not have paid.

I attach copies of the Order, Map and have highlighted where I was parked.

I ask that you regard this as a two fold complaint.

Firstly that I have been unjustly penalised and that payments made should be reimbursed. A minimum solution should you disagree would be to reinstate the PCN, allow me to challenge based on the above and if needs be, through to the appeals process via independent adjudicators.

Secondly, that your CEOs are enforcing in areas where they have no lawful right to do so.
I ask for reassurance that they will cease immediately and that the council investigate previous PCNs that may have been paid and reimburse should it be found that the PCNs were issued in error.


Hugs and Kisses


Not too sure if the minimum solution should be in there.
See if others have any other takes.
It will be uphill but nothing ventured, nothing gained

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 - 13:13
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cp8759
post Sun, 3 Feb 2019 - 20:15
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The council should reject any complaint as being outside the scope of the complaints policy, but as DancingDad says there's nothing to be lost in trying.


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DancingDad
post Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 09:16
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 3 Feb 2019 - 20:15) *
The council should reject any complaint as being outside the scope of the complaints policy, but as DancingDad says there's nothing to be lost in trying.


That's why I made it two fold.
The first may simply get a "you paid, tough" response.
The second regards malpractice within the parking debt, not so easy to ignore and well within any complaints policy
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