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Way out of date NIP
coffee pot
post Thu, 10 Jan 2019 - 21:49
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The appended has been received by my daughter. The NIP wizard says this:

Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - No
Was there a valid reason for the NIP's late arrival? - No

She has changed address since the date of the alleged offence and updated DVLA. She has been to speak to the present occupants who state categorically that there has been no post to her apart from one letter that they notifoed her of promptly and she went to collect from them to the previous address.

She knows she needs to send back information on her name, address and date of birth, but what then?
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post Thu, 10 Jan 2019 - 21:49
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BaggieBoy
post Thu, 10 Jan 2019 - 22:01
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Did she update her V5C or just her licence (seems a lot of people just do the latter and assume the V5C will automatically be updated)?

Is the name/address on the V5C her correct current address

What was the date of the offence and (assuming the V5C has been updated) what is the DocRef date?
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coffee pot
post Thu, 10 Jan 2019 - 22:15
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She updated both.
The V5C is correct.
The date of the offence is on the attachment but for clarity is 17/09/2018.
The date on the V5C is later than that and not to hand but early December - perhaps around 10th.
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Jlc
post Thu, 10 Jan 2019 - 22:19
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What’s the documentarion ref date at the bottom of page 2 in DD MM YY format?

EDIT: Mis-read that V5 was updated after offence.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 11:07


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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coffee pot
post Thu, 10 Jan 2019 - 22:25
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Sorry to sound dense - page 2 of what? There is one page with one date on it on the NIP as you can see and, as I said before, the V5C is not to hand right now.
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Jlc
post Thu, 10 Jan 2019 - 22:31
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On the v5 - missed it wasn’t to hand.

But it absolutely imperative to physically check it - that the address is 100% correct and the date the DVLA updated it (doc ref date).


It is unlikely to be simply issued ‘late’.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 11:10


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Logician
post Thu, 10 Jan 2019 - 22:57
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QUOTE (coffee pot @ Thu, 10 Jan 2019 - 22:15) *
She updated both. The V5C is correct. The date of the offence is on the attachment but for clarity is 17/09/2018. The date on the V5C is later than that and not to hand but early December - perhaps around 10th.


If those dates are correct, then the first NIP would have gone to her previous address. On what date did she move out?

Is the NIP you have posted the one she went to her previous address to collect?

Her best move to clarify the situation may be to phone Kent Police and ask when the first NIP was issued and to what address.






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coffee pot
post Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 09:28
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I said in the opening posting: "She has changed address since the date of the alleged offence and updated DVLA. She has been to speak to the present occupants who state categorically that there has been no post to her apart from one letter that they notified her of promptly and she went to collect from them to the previous address."

The letter was about an unrelated matter. This NIP is the first correspondence she has received which came correctly addressed to her present address. How can you tell there was a previous NIP from what has been posted here?
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666
post Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 09:45
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QUOTE (coffee pot @ Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 09:28) *
How can you tell there was a previous NIP from what has been posted here?


Because, as Sherlock Holmes might have said, there is no other logical explanation.

If the police had failed to issue a NIP within 14 days, and had suddenly woken up in early January, they would still have sent the NIP to the address registered at the time of the alleged offence, not the current address.
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coffee pot
post Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 10:02
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I didn't include it, but the accompanying paperwork offers a SAC, conditional offer of fixed penalty or court hearing. Are you suggesting that if this was a second notice after an out of time first notice this piece of paper would not have been included? It seems very odd to me (as a layman) that this is not emblazoned as a second warning. Why have they bothered at all? From others I have seen here people have found themselves with points and a fine without a clue.
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 10:37
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Noone is saying that at all
Theyre saying it is highly unlikely that this is the first notice

You have a combined super-NIP/S172, in that it also gives all the options in one go.
Why would htey bother to say it is a second notice?

Youve been otld the best rout eto go, but it is almost certainly not going to be possible to mount a late NIP defence, and if your daughter was driving then accepting now means a SAC, continuing to argue might see that offer withdrawn.
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Jlc
post Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 11:02
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I thought only Avon & Somerset issued 'Super' NIP's.

But anyway, the letters rarely help in making any assessment in whether they are initial or subsequent letters. They sometimes explicitly say 'reminder' or some rare cases do state that they have complied with s1 RTOA previously. (I.e. the 14 days)

In terms of a 'NIP defence'. It is likely the 1st letter was sent to the keeper's last known address within the required time frame. They are likely to be able to evidence this and the burden falls on the defendant to show the letter did not arrive. (It is presumed delivered)

It is possible to defend on this basis but don't underestimate the effort required. Apparently committing a separate offence in not updating the v5 isn't going to assist any such defence. (However, this offence is rarely pursued)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 11:07


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Ocelot
post Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 13:35
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If the phone call reveals that it isn't the first NIP in the chain, and the offer of a course still stands, this would be the most painless option. If they realise it is the first in the chain, they may cancel it. If you decide to challenge it in Court it will be expensive.
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NewJudge
post Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 15:29
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QUOTE (Ocelot @ Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 13:35) *
If you decide to challenge it in Court it will be expensive.

Not if the challenge is successful, it won't be (provided you don't hire "Mr Loophole").
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coffee pot
post Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 15:45
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She rang Kent Police and they said they used the insurance to trace her. This was the second and they were about to send a third. She rang DVLA who say they haven't received the V5 (really? How convenient; two important letters mysteriously going missing). Kent were very nice and the lady she spoke to said that if she got it back today she'd do her best to get her a SAC. She has taken a copy of the V62 and sent it (with a ruddy £25 charge!) to DVLA by registered post. She's pretty hacked off about the whole thing; she has no recollection of what she has done 4 months ago (she travels a lot) and because of her large mileage tries very hard to keep to speed limits. She regards this simply as a fine and part of the burden of personal travel rather than something useful she can learn from.
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peterguk
post Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 15:51
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QUOTE (coffee pot @ Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 15:45) *
She rang Kent Police and they said they used the insurance to trace her. This was the second and they were about to send a third. She rang DVLA who say they haven't received the V5 (really? How convenient; two important letters mysteriously going missing)

Which is why we always ask posters to have V5C in their hand.


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coffee pot
post Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 15:55
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Sure, Peter, and I have nothing but praise for what help you all give, but it's difficult for people who move frequently as their job moves around (she may be off to Manchester in the near future) as bureaucracy simply doesn't keep up and she had already waited a month for DVLA's response. Their website tells you to give them 6 weeks!
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Logician
post Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 20:53
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If she moves frequently she may be better off using a more permanent address, such as yours is (I presume). The obligation is to give an address through which she can be contacted, not necessarily one she sleeps at.


QUOTE
She regards this simply as a fine and part of the burden of personal travel rather than something useful she can learn from.

Fair enough, but she would be well advised not to say anything like that when on the course; it is possible to fail the course and the providers like to think they are providing useful information.


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coffee pot
post Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 22:54
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We have actually asked her to stop using our address as we can be away for extended periods and don't want to be held responsible for any problems.

I'm sure she is savvy enough not to say anything untoward on the course; I meant that she has no idea what she has transgressed, and if there is no knowledge of what you did 'wrong' especially in the incredibly safe environment of a slowly travelling four lane motorway there can be no learning.
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The Rookie
post Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 01:30
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Either ingnored a speed limit sign or didn’t see it, that’s what she did wrong I’d suggest. The latter being potentially more serious than the former.


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