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Red light - manual detection
Nick Kaye
post Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 11:58
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I received the letter below in the post. They ask for the identity of the driver. I cannot for the life of me remember this and neither can my wife. We were both off work at the time with the kids and it could have been either. I emailed them for more evidence but the reply i got was the following...

"I can confirm that the offence was witnessed by an officer on a private motorbike. The driver of the range rover accelerated around the motorbike at the red traffic light and turned right at the junction.
There is footage of the incident but this will only be released if a case progresses to court.

It is the registered keeper's responsibility to know who is driving their vehicle at all times. The form sent to you will need to be completed with the details of who was driving and sent back to us as soon as possible, as required by law"

What should be my next move?

Do I just put one of us or push for evidence?
Will they take it to court?

Thanks in advance.




This post has been edited by Nick Kaye: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 12:04
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post Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 11:58
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The Rookie
post Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 12:05
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Did you just ask for evidence or evidence to assist in identifying the driver?

They are correct that they don't have to supply and about your legal responsibilities it but it would be disingenuous to not share it to help you ID the driver.

Do either of you have location enabled on a smart phone, either make phone calls or card transactions that may rule you in or out?

The event description does sound like it should be memorable?


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Nick Kaye
post Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 12:28
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Thanks. I asked for both. I have a feeling it was me, but my wife also took the car around that time. If it were me then I remember there was a car dithering while the lights were still green and I overtook but the bloody flat spot on the diesel engine meant I went through while they were amber, didn't think they were red so not sure. If I put myself down will they just prosecute or take it to court?
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southpaw82
post Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 12:37
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Prosecute and take it to court are largely synonymous, so what exactly are you asking?


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AntonyMMM
post Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 12:42
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If you don't nominate a driver whether you (or anyone) committed the red light offence is irrelevant - you would be prosecuted for the s172 offence, and having to convince a court that you could not name the driver. Very difficult to win , but not impossible, but 6 points and a high fine if you lose.

This post has been edited by AntonyMMM: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 12:43
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HotWater
post Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 12:47
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They'll certainly prosecute if you don't respond to the s.172 request in time, so that you need to make sure that is done.

If you haven't specifically asked for evidence to assist in identifying the driver, then do so now.

Whether you hear back, or not, you still need to get the s.172 response back on time.

If you cannot name the driver you need to rack you brain for any information that could be used, including the questions suggested by The Rookie, and detail this in the response. Make it as thorough as possible to show that you have done everything that you can.

Make sure that you get it to them on time, but hold off as long as you can, to see if they send any evidence to you.
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Nick Kaye
post Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 13:10
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Great thanks all. Once I do fill it out will it be an automatic prosecution?
What I mean is will they submit evidence or just prosecute?
Also I had a stupid 37 mile an hour speeding course about a year ago so not sure I will be applicable for that again.
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Jlc
post Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 13:27
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There might be alternatives to a prosecution offered such as a conditional offer (fixed penalty) or another course if eligible.

It's also potentially an offence to pass at amber. (It means stop unless you are too close to the stop line to stop safely before red)

QUOTE (Nick Kaye @ Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 11:58) *
It is the registered keeper's responsibility to know who is driving their vehicle at all times.

That's not true...

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 13:24


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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The Rookie
post Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 14:33
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QUOTE (Nick Kaye @ Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 12:28) *
Thanks. I asked for both.

That’s not a possible answer to the question I asked........though I think I know what you mean.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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Nick Kaye
post Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 16:11
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Thanks again. If I have done a speed awareness course 2 years ago, would this potential course for careless driving (or whatever they call it) count as the same? i.e, does the 3 year period still apply?
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thisisntme
post Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 16:16
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QUOTE (Nick Kaye @ Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 16:11) *
Thanks again. If I have done a speed awareness course 2 years ago, would this potential course for careless driving (or whatever they call it) count as the same? i.e, does the 3 year period still apply?


No you would be able to take a red light course, Managed Motorways speed course or a careless driving course also.


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Nick Kaye
post Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 16:43
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Thanks. Seems like a lot of money making courses!
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NewJudge
post Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 17:12
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QUOTE (Nick Kaye @ Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 16:43) *
Thanks. Seems like a lot of money making courses!

Yes but they provide you with multiple opportunities to avoid convictions and points! wink.gif
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Logician
post Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 17:13
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"I can confirm that the offence was witnessed by an officer on a private motorbike. The driver of the range rover accelerated around the motorbike at the red traffic light and turned right at the junction."


QUOTE
I remember there was a car dithering while the lights were still green and I overtook but the bloody flat spot on the diesel engine meant I went through while they were amber, didn't think they were red so not sure


These sound like two descriptions of the same incident from different perspectives! If your wife does not remember anything like that, it sounds as though it was you driving. As it was witnessed by a police officer you could ask if he noticed if it was a male or female driver, if you are still in doubt.


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Nick Kaye
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 10:02
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Dear Mr ...

"I have contacted the officer for the footage and obtained a copy.



I have reviewed the footage with my manager and have agreed to close this case as the vehicle is seen going through a red light 1 ½ seconds after the lights change and deemed that this would result in a hazard if you attempted to stop.



You do not need to respond with any paperwork you have received from us."

Basically, they didn't have any evidence and I called their bluff!
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peterguk
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 10:04
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QUOTE (Nick Kaye @ Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 10:02) *
Basically, they didn't have any evidence and I called their bluff!

So they are lying about the video?


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Nick Kaye
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 10:36
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I believe so
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666
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 10:38
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QUOTE (Nick Kaye @ Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 10:02) *
Dear Mr ...

"I have contacted the officer for the footage and obtained a copy.



I have reviewed the footage with my manager and have agreed to close this case as the vehicle is seen going through a red light 1 ½ seconds after the lights change and deemed that this would result in a hazard if you attempted to stop.


It appears then that the OP had 4.5 seconds (incuding amber) in which to stop. Why would stopping have caused a hazard?
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Jlc
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 10:43
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QUOTE (Nick Kaye @ Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 10:02) *
Basically, they didn't have any evidence and I called their bluff!

I highly doubt they were 'lying' but there may be some issue with the footage that could impact it's admissibility. Either way, they've dropped the matter for whatever reason so happy days.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Logician
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 12:05
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QUOTE
the vehicle is seen going through a red light 1 ½ seconds after the lights change and deemed that this would result in a hazard if you attempted to stop.


Hmm, that would be appropriate for a vehicle going through on amber, not on red. I wonder if the officer when questioned admitted that he could not be certain that the car did not go through on amber. They may think they have found a face-saving way of dropping the matter.


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