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MS90, 6 points and license revoked (new driver), Stat Dec soon. Help please., Threads merged x3
Stripes
post Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 16:19
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Hi thanks for reading and please advise me if you could.
In June 2018, I was on a trip in Wales and was, unbeknownst to me, caught doing 40mph on a 30mph road. I live in a flat above a closed down office and received no letters at all. In December (now), I was in the process of moving to a new house so decided to update my driving license address. It would come up with an error repeatedly which was weird. I tried over a couple of days. So one day I decided to ask the DVLA why it won't let me change my address. Before ringing them I quickly checked my license details online using their website and saw that I have 6 points under MS90 and my license has been revoked in November under the New Drivers Act (I passed in May 2017). This of course shocked me so I rang everyone possible, and here are the responses I got. The DVLA said to ring my local magistrate and do a Stat Dec which is booked on the Friday 11th of Jan 2019. I got access to the closed offices beneath my flat and found a whole heap of letters including the NIP and letters from the DVLA. Now, here's the weird bit. My flats address is (not mentioned the real number so will use 123) 123A Something Road. Now half of the letters were addressed to 123 Something Road and some to my flat 123A. I rang the Welsh police force who issued the NIP and they said my address on log book and insurance was down as 123 Something Road, which I hadn't realised at all. However, my license address with the DVLA is 123A. I was completely unaware and thought there must be a problem. I had previously not received council tax letters to my flat either. Every letter, regardless of whether it's being addressed to 123 or 123A ends up in the closed down office. It was impossible for me to receive any letters as the post service has the top flat and bottom office down as 123 Something Road and they're giving me written confirmation of this soon. This may be why my insurance and log book has the wrong address. Anyway, I have to do a Stat Dec on the 11th and have read topics on here but I'm really unsure about the process and whether I'll be allowed to drive my car soon after it as I need it to travel to university. If you could answer the following questions it'll be really helpful.
1. What should I plead in regards to speeding and the failure to provide information.
2. How long after I submit the Stat Dec does the endorsement get removed and I can start driving?
3. What's the likelihood they'll drop the MS90 on the day if I do a plea bargain, and also how likely is it that I'll be allowed to bargain. Or who do I bargain with?
4. Do I need to take evidence with me to the magistrates for my Stat Dec?
5. If they set a new court date in Wales, will I need a solicitor to go with me or is it possible to fight this on my own? Would the letter from Royal Mail admitting no letters were being sent to my actual flat be enough to squash the MS90?
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post Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 16:19
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cp8759
post Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 16:56
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What's the address on the V5C for the vehicle you drive? The address on your licence is irrelevant as you don't have your driving licence number on display on the back of your car, you have you car's number plate instead.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Redivi
post Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 16:56
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1. What should I plead in regards to speeding and the failure to provide information.
Not Guilty to both

2. How long after I submit the Stat Dec does the endorsement get removed and I can start driving?
Don't know

3. What's the likelihood they'll drop the MS90 on the day if I do a plea bargain, and also how likely is it that I'll be allowed to bargain. Or who do I bargain with?
You do the deal with the prosecutor. Refusal is almost unknown

4. Do I need to take evidence with me to the magistrates for my Stat Dec?
Don't think so

5. If they set a new court date in Wales, will I need a solicitor to go with me or is it possible to fight this on my own?
Would the letter from Royal Mail admitting no letters were being sent to my actual flat be enough to squash the MS90?

Solicitors are never necessary unless you're a celebrity and want to find a loophole or avoid answering questions
Can't see that the Royal Mail letter will help if the address on the registration document was wrong and letters were delivered correctly
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Stripes
post Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 17:15
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So just to be clear, on the day of the stat dec would it be possible for me to speak to the prosecutor and propose they drop the MS90 in favour of me pleading guilty for speeding? Or is that a matter for once the case is set to reopen on another date?
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andy_foster
post Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 17:17
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 16:56) *
5. If they set a new court date in Wales, will I need a solicitor to go with me or is it possible to fight this on my own?
Would the letter from Royal Mail admitting no letters were being sent to my actual flat be enough to squash the MS90?


Can't see that the Royal Mail letter will help if the address on the registration document was wrong and letters were delivered correctly


If no letters were being delivered to the OP's flat, regardless of whether or not they were correctly addressed, then it owuld make no difference if they were correctly addressed or not.

The issue is whether or not (the court will find that) it would have been reasonably practicable for the OP to have ensured that he received the notice and therefore be in a position to provide the information.
On the face of it, all correctly addressed mail not being delivered to his flat during the relevant period would seem to mean that it would not have been reasonably practicable - unless they found that he ought to have realised that he was not receiving any post and chased up the post office - which would seem to depend on facts which we are not currently privy to.

QUOTE (Stripes @ Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 17:15) *
So just to be clear, on the day of the stat dec would it be possible for me to speak to the prosecutor and propose they drop the MS90 in favour of me pleading guilty for speeding? Or is that a matter for once the case is set to reopen on another date?


Sometimes. Sometimes not.


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Andy

"Whatever the intention of Parliament was, or was not, the law is quite clear." - The Rookie
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cp8759
post Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 17:23
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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 17:16) *
QUOTE (Redivi @ Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 16:56) *
5. If they set a new court date in Wales, will I need a solicitor to go with me or is it possible to fight this on my own?
Would the letter from Royal Mail admitting no letters were being sent to my actual flat be enough to squash the MS90?


Can't see that the Royal Mail letter will help if the address on the registration document was wrong and letters were delivered correctly


If no letters were being delivered to the OP's flat, regardless of whether or not they were correctly addressed, then it owuld make no difference if they were correctly addressed or not.

The issue is whether or not (the court will find that) it would have been reasonably practicable for the OP to have ensured that he received the notice and therefore be in a position to provide the information.
On the face of it, all correctly addressed mail not being delivered to his flat during the relevant period would seem to mean that it would not have been reasonably practicable - unless they found that he ought to have realised that he was not receiving any post and chased up the post office - which would seem to depend on facts which we are not currently privy to.

The opening post "I live in a flat above a closed down office and received no letters at all." suggests that not receiving any post whatsoever was simply the normal state of affairs, i.e. by no letters he doesn't mean just letters related to this issue, but letters generally. This IMO puts the OP in a tricky position as he must have realised something was not quite right (or else you could speed as much as you like by just registering a vehicle at an address where the Royal Mail cannot deliver).


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Logician
post Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 17:32
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If I understand correctly your V5C for the vehicle has the wrong address, 123 Something Road instead of 123A, and the NIP was duly delivered to the wrong address, so you did not receive it. You have failed to correct the error on the V5C.

In these circumstances it seems to me difficult to defend the s.172, and your best option is to attempt to do the deal you have read about on here. However that depends, usually, on you also being charged with the speeding. You do not mention the speeding, were you charged with that as well as the s.172, which would be usual? You should not have been convicted of that as there was no evidence available to the court that your were driving.

Assuming you were originally charged with both offences, immediately after the stat dec is made (for which you need no evidence) you will be asked how you plead to the two charges. Indicate not guilty to both. Sometimes the court will proceed immediately to hear the case, more usually another date is set. Assuming that happens, the procedure is as follows:

Attend court on the date set, as there is no evidence as to who was driving your car, since you have not told them, there can be no conviction for the speeding unless you plead guilty. Get to court early and ask one of the ushers (people scurrying about with clipboards and possibly gowns getting things organised) to point out to you the prosecutor who will be dealing with traffic matters. Say to him/her that you will plead guilty to the speeding if they will drop the s.172. We have never heard of prosecutors refusing to do this, they prefer to get a conviction for the underlying offence, and regard the two offences as effectively alternative offences. If you do not manage to speak to the prosecutor beforehand, you should still be able to do the deal in the courtroom. It is very difficult to do this in advance of the court hearing as you would have trouble speaking to the right person.

If you had received the NIP you could have nominated yourself as the driver and would then have received the offer of a fixed penalty*. The normal sentencing for speeding in court would be rather more severe than this, so you would have been disadvantaged. Therefore you should point this out to the court and request to be sentenced at the fixed penalty level, which is a guideline for magistrates' courts in these circumstances. The actual wording of the guideline is:

Where a penalty notice could not be offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender, the starting point should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be imposed. The offender should not be disadvantaged by the unavailability of the penalty notice in these circumstances


*For that speed you would have received the offer of a course, but this is not something that the court can now offer you.


The lesson to draw from this is that the mass of bureaucratic detail involved in running a car needs to be complied with completely. Had you got your correct address put on the V5C and the Royal Mail still delivered the NIP to the office below, you could have defended the s.172 charge and the speeding charge would be out of time, leaving you clear of any points or fine.




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Stripes
post Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 17:43
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Thanks everyone for offering advice I just thought I'd clear up some issues. The reason I'm arguing that it'd be unreasonable for me to receive and reply to the letters is I just moved into the flat which is my sister's in September 2017. Most of my bank letters etc are still addressed to my old home which is where most of my mail goes as I plan to move back there. Of course I had to change my license and driving documents to 123A something Road because that's where I live. So I couldn't have notice the lack of post because I didn't expect anything to be posted. I spoke to a solicitor who advised to plead guilty to Failure to Furnish but request a hearing for sentencing where a solicitor would contact the cps and at the hearing argue that although it wasn't the polices fault as they sent the letters to the address on their records, I still couldn't have received them and the court may take leniency and not give 6 points but rather a week ban or something similar. Is this a smart route to take?
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Irksome
post Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 17:55
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Its a very smart route to take if you want to end up with the MS90 conviction! The advice you have been given here is correct, and your solicitor is incorrect.

This post has been edited by Irksome: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 17:56
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Jlc
post Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 18:05
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I wouldn’t say the solicitor was ‘incorrect’ as it might work (or it might not) but I’d prefer my chances on the plea bargain.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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cp8759
post Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 18:09
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QUOTE (Stripes @ Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 17:43) *
Of course I had to change my license and driving documents to 123A something Road because that's where I live. So I couldn't have notice the lack of post because I didn't expect anything to be posted.

There's no "of course" about it, the legal obligation is that your car must be registered at an address where it is possible to receive post. There is no legal obligation that the address the place where you happen to live. From what you've said, you should have just left your car registration as it was, or changed it to some other address where you could receive post.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Stripes
post Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 18:26
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I wasn't aware of the lack of post issue until I found out I had an MS90 endorsement as I wasn't expecting to receive any post. Also, what exactly is the process on the day. Do I have to prepare a declaration or do i write one when I'm there? Another solicitor advised me to speak to the legal adviser in front of the magistrate and simply explain the whole situation as a lot of unnecessary stress because of a post mix up and that if I knew about the speeding ticket I'd have easily gone on the course or paid the fine so I'm requesting I be given the chance to do that. Is this likely to resolve the matter? Because pleading not guilty means a trial and I can't really afford a solicitor I'm a student in university. Do I ask the magistrate to drop the MS90 in favour of guilty for speeding if I can't talk to the prosecutor beforehand?
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Irksome
post Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 18:32
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Take a look through some of the recent threads on this ... there have been some good explanations from people who have been through this process and taken the time to post back their experiences.

The stat dec is just that, a declaration sworn on oath that you had no knowledge of the prosecution that you faced. You will need to swear in court (to either a bench of 3 magistrates of the district judge) that this is the case. They shouldn't really discuss the matter of the allegation, but often do to expedite the matter - you would plead not guilty etc as per the advice above.

This post has been edited by Irksome: Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 18:33
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Stripes
post Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 12:02
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Quick update. Did the stat Dec. Court automatically offered to drop ms90 for a guilty plea in speeding without even asking why I wasn't able to reply. £40 fine, £85 court costs and £30 victim surcharge and 3 points.
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Stripes
post Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 14:25
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Hi I'd appreciate some advice on this matter. I was flashed by a camera speeding on 25/06/18. Due to the police posting letters to the wrong house, I was given an MS90 and appeared in court today for a statutory declaration and had the MS90 and 6 points wiped off in return for 3 points and a 40 pound fine. I believe for SP30. I'm trying to inform my insurer and they're asking for the date of offence. Does this mean the date I was speeding or today in January when I was given the 3 points. I started my policy with them in September 2018 and if I have to say I got a SP30 in June then they'll charge me an extra 1300 in insurance. But would this not be false as the speeding was in June but i received no points until January 2019 and also the court wiped out all the MS90 and points, at the time of insuring the car in September 2018 I had no points and no conviction. Please help or ask a question if you need clarification
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Stripes
post Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 14:57
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Hi I'd appreciate some advice on this matter. I was flashed by a camera speeding on 25/06/18. Due to the police posting letters to the wrong house, I was given an MS90 and appeared in court today for a statutory declaration and had the MS90 and 6 points wiped off in return for 3 points and a 40 pound fine. I believe for SP30. I'm trying to inform my insurer and they're asking for the date of offence. Does this mean the date I was speeding or today in January when I was given the 3 points. I started my policy with them in September 2018 and if I have to say I got a SP30 in June then they'll charge me an extra 1300 in insurance. But would this not be false as the speeding was in June but i received no points until January 2019 and also the court wiped out all the MS90 and points, at the time of insuring the car in September 2018 I had no points and no conviction. Please help or ask a question if you need clarification
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peterguk
post Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 15:04
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Linked to this case?:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=125184&hl=


Phone the insurance comopany and ask them?

This post has been edited by peterguk: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 15:04


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The Rookie
post Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 15:07
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That’s a rather weird financial set, but a result none the less!


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Stripes
post Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 15:24
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Would you know which date id have to tell my insurer. Today as in the date I was convicted or June the date of speeding
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Jlc
post Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 15:32
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If they ask for the date of offence then it's 25/06/18.

Or if they want the date of conviction then it's today.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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