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Driving without due care and attention, Wrongly accused
john1253
post Sat, 5 Jan 2019 - 15:56
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I was driving along a straight dual carriageway at 6.04 in the morning, I moved into the outside lane to overtake the car in front of me when he decided to move into the outside lane forcing me to brake, when he moved back into the nearside lane I accelerated to pass him then moved back into the nearside lane because I was nearing my slip road exit, I indicated and braked to leave the dual carriageway but this other car stayed extremely close to me, I waved at him for driving so close, At 4.00pm the same afternoon a policeman came banging on my door to ask me was I the driver on the dual carriageway that morning, on saying I was he told me he was the driver of the other car off duty, he accused me of careless driving and issued me with a section 59 and told me I would be reported for driving without due care and attention, I couldn't believe what was happening and I feel he maybe got in before me in case I reported him for tailgating me, anyway I am in court on the 14/2/2019 on a charge of driving without due care and attention and the person accusing me is the who drove without due care and attention, life just isnt fair.

This post has been edited by john1253: Sat, 5 Jan 2019 - 17:14
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post Sat, 5 Jan 2019 - 15:56
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Dwain
post Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 19:13
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Can the officer give a section 59 and then send for prosecution as well?
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southpaw82
post Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 19:17
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QUOTE (Dwain @ Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 19:13) *
Can the officer give a section 59 and then send for prosecution as well?

Why not?


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notmeatloaf
post Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 19:31
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S59s are somewhat infamously outside of the courts system and the protections it offers defendants. However, it is fair to say that normally the police treat them as alternative resolutions, even though they are not obligated to.
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M12MTR
post Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 20:17
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Can the off duty policeman just use his verbal word (And no dashcam evidence) to prosecute?

Isn't it just one word against another with no actual evidence?
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southpaw82
post Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 20:22
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QUOTE (M12MTR @ Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 20:17) *
Can the off duty policeman just use his verbal word (And no dashcam evidence) to prosecute?

Isn't it just one word against another with no actual evidence?

Since when has oral testimony not been "actual evidence"?


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NewJudge
post Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 20:38
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Indeed. Many criminal trials rest on "one word against another" and it's important to remember that prosecutions and successful convictions took place long before CCTV and dash cams were invented. They all depended on oral testimony.
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M12MTR
post Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 20:39
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 21:22) *
QUOTE (M12MTR @ Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 20:17) *
Can the off duty policeman just use his verbal word (And no dashcam evidence) to prosecute?

Isn't it just one word against another with no actual evidence?

Since when has oral testimony not been "actual evidence"?


Really? So an off duty police can say their version and that's evidence?

Would the same apply if he wasn't a police? Ie. A member of the public driving giving a verbal account?
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Jlc
post Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 20:44
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Yes.


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southpaw82
post Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 20:50
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QUOTE (M12MTR @ Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 20:39) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 21:22) *
QUOTE (M12MTR @ Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 20:17) *
Can the off duty policeman just use his verbal word (And no dashcam evidence) to prosecute?

Isn't it just one word against another with no actual evidence?

Since when has oral testimony not been "actual evidence"?


Really? So an off duty police can say their version and that's evidence?

Would the same apply if he wasn't a police? Ie. A member of the public driving giving a verbal account?

Yes and yes.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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Fredd
post Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 21:02
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QUOTE (M12MTR @ Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 20:39) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 21:22) *
QUOTE (M12MTR @ Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 20:17) *
Can the off duty policeman just use his verbal word (And no dashcam evidence) to prosecute?

Isn't it just one word against another with no actual evidence?

Since when has oral testimony not been "actual evidence"?


Really? So an off duty police can say their version and that's evidence?

Would the same apply if he wasn't a police? Ie. A member of the public driving giving a verbal account?

What's perhaps not been explained is that "evidence" is not the same as "fact" - while a police officer's statement is evidence, it's not automatically treated as fact and is no more evidence than your verbal account would be. The crucial point is that it's up to the court to decide how much weight to give to each piece of evidence. However, fairly obviously they're going to be more sceptical about evidence from someone who has a clear personal interest in the outcome compared with a supposedly disinterested off-duty police officer.


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The Rookie
post Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 01:33
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To add to what Fred has said, a court is free to give whatever weight it thinks is relevant to any piece of evidence, it’s likley to give more weight to a photograph for example than verbal evidence that is at odds with what a photo shows, but could decide the photograph should be given less weight for some reason.


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cp8759
post Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 11:16
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 20:50) *
QUOTE (M12MTR @ Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 20:39) *

Really? So an off duty police can say their version and that's evidence?

Would the same apply if he wasn't a police? Ie. A member of the public driving giving a verbal account?

Yes and yes.

If you think about it if this weren't the case, nobody could have ever been convicted of a crime before the invention of photography in the 1800s.


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Logician
post Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 11:46
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We see this again and again, don't we, because many speeding offences rely on camera evidence, many of the general public have come to believe that camera evidence is required for motoring offences. Actually they are no different from other offences, the courts decide what weight to place on any evidence before them and in the general run of offences before a magistrates court, camera evidence is available in perhaps 5% of cases.


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Kieran_e1
post Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 12:11
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 20:50) *
QUOTE (M12MTR @ Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 20:39) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 21:22) *
QUOTE (M12MTR @ Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 20:17) *
Can the off duty policeman just use his verbal word (And no dashcam evidence) to prosecute?

Isn't it just one word against another with no actual evidence?

Since when has oral testimony not been "actual evidence"?


Really? So an off duty police can say their version and that's evidence?

Would the same apply if he wasn't a police? Ie. A member of the public driving giving a verbal account?

Yes and yes.

unless in scotland where ( thankfully ) corroboration is still a requirement
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peterguk
post Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 12:24
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QUOTE (Kieran_e1 @ Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 12:11) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 20:50) *
QUOTE (M12MTR @ Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 20:39) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 21:22) *
QUOTE (M12MTR @ Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 20:17) *
Can the off duty policeman just use his verbal word (And no dashcam evidence) to prosecute?

Isn't it just one word against another with no actual evidence?

Since when has oral testimony not been "actual evidence"?


Really? So an off duty police can say their version and that's evidence?

Would the same apply if he wasn't a police? Ie. A member of the public driving giving a verbal account?

Yes and yes.

unless in scotland where ( thankfully ) corroboration is still a requirement

A requirement for what? A single police officer can't give witness testimony?


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southpaw82
post Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 13:53
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QUOTE (Kieran_e1 @ Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 12:11) *
unless in scotland where ( thankfully ) corroboration is still a requirement

Did you read the question and reply?


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Kieran_e1
post Sat, 26 Jan 2019 - 18:57
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 12:24) *
QUOTE (Kieran_e1 @ Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 12:11) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 20:50) *
QUOTE (M12MTR @ Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 20:39) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 21:22) *
QUOTE (M12MTR @ Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 20:17) *
Can the off duty policeman just use his verbal word (And no dashcam evidence) to prosecute?

Isn't it just one word against another with no actual evidence?

Since when has oral testimony not been "actual evidence"?


Really? So an off duty police can say their version and that's evidence?

Would the same apply if he wasn't a police? Ie. A member of the public driving giving a verbal account?

Yes and yes.

unless in scotland where ( thankfully ) corroboration is still a requirement

A requirement for what? A single police officer can't give witness testimony?

a single officer with no corroboratory evidence isn't sufficient for prosecution

i.e. panda car catches you speeding. One officer in car. No video. No corroboration no chance of it sticking

i added in this point as someone may find themselves in a similar situation but in scotland to the OP and search this thread later.

apologies if not relevant.
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southpaw82
post Sat, 26 Jan 2019 - 19:04
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Is it the case in Scotland* that a single police officer couldn’t perform a check with his speedometer as there would be no corroboration?

* I don’t know the answer but I don’t want to be accused of playing with my food.


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andy_foster
post Sat, 26 Jan 2019 - 19:07
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...

This post has been edited by andy_foster: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 - 19:11


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If you're going to try to contradict me, please at least try to get your facts straight.
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Kieran_e1
post Sat, 26 Jan 2019 - 20:16
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Sat, 26 Jan 2019 - 19:04) *
Is it the case in Scotland* that a single police officer couldn’t perform a check with his speedometer as there would be no corroboration?

* I don’t know the answer but I don’t want to be accused of playing with my food.

as far as every specialist lawyer I've ever talked to has said, no a cop in a car on his own cannot provide corroboration. So two cops and a speedo, or a cop with a video would do it ( which is why in scotland traffic cars can run single manned but with proper recording info with speed etc )

all the police scotland panda cars are without any video equipment.

I may know of someone who got off a phone offense on this basis biggrin.gif One cop, never made it past the fiscal office, case tossed, no corroboration

Corroboration in Scots law. ... A cornerstone of Scots law, the requirement for corroborating evidence means at least two different and independent sources of evidence are required in support of each crucial fact before a defendant can be convicted of a crime.



This post has been edited by Kieran_e1: Sat, 26 Jan 2019 - 20:20
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