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Single Justice Procedure (Speeding & Failing to give information) - Never received any previous letters!?, Threads merged
kr96
post Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 02:21
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Hello, i would appreciate some advice on my situation. I am a new to this site and this is first speeding issue i have faced too.

I received a Single Justice Procedure for the charges of Speeding and Failing to give information. However, this is the first time I have been made aware of this speeding offence which took place back in July (received the SJPN at the end of December).

22/07/2018 - I got caught doing 39mph in 30mph limit by manned equipment
31/07/2018 - they say they sent a NIP by 1st class post
28/08/2018 - they say they send a reminder letter by 2nd class post

I live above a business and have previously had issues with receiving my post hence why I may have not received the previous letters but I genuinely didn't know about this until i got the SJPN.

I check my mail regularly and had I received the original letter I would have accepted the speeding charge immediately to do the speeding course and avoid the points on my licenseas it would have made no sense to ignore the letters. However I am not sure what happens now and having 3 points on my license will impact me massively being a young driver and a student struggling financially already.

I have read on these forums that the general procedure is to plead not guilty to both and on the day of court, ask the prosecutor to drop the Failing to give information charge by pleading guilty to the speeding.

However as I mentioned previously taking those 3 points could possibly mean I can no longer afford to drive which would impact me getting to uni and seeing my family who i do not live near.

Is there any chances I can avoid having this go to court and sort this situation out now and still do the educational course? I have been frantically trying to contact the Central Ticket Office multiple times with no luck and even contacted the police who have been no help.


Any advice on what to do next or who to contact? I have written a letter explain my situation which i have posted to the central ticket office and contacted them by email too.


Appologies for the long post and all the questions. I am very worried and panicing about this situation as it's my first speeding offense and I am unsure about what do to.
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post Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 02:21
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cp8759
post Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 03:03
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Realistically you cannot avoid court, however I think you're blowing this out of all proportion. Three points for sp30 are so common that most insurance companies won't add anything to the insurance premium because of it.

In fact, there's a logic to say that someone with 3 points is going to drive extra carefully to avoid getting another three.


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Jlc
post Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 08:40
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Is your v5 address 100% correct?

Going not guilty and fighting the s172 could be risky - it has 6 points attached to it if found guilty along with prosecution costs.

We have once seen a court allow an awareness course to be taken but that is very very unusual. Asking for a fixed penalty equivalent fine (an no costs order) are likely to be the best you'll get following a plea bargain as you mention.

3 points may have an impact on your insurance - but generally you don't have to notify them until renewal, check your own terms.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 08:52


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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NewJudge
post Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 09:01
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The ticket office will not withdraw court proceedings once they are initiated so having the matter dealt with by the court is all but inevitable. The court has no power to award a course instead of a points/fine penalty.

You need to enter a Not Guilty plea to both charges. The matter will then be taken out of the Single Justice (SJ) process and listed for a hearing in the normal court. You will have to attend court to do the "deal" which you know about. Once you have secured that you can ask the court to sentence you at the fixed penalty level. They have guidance which allows them to do so:

"Where a penalty notice could not be offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender, the starting point should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be imposed. The offender should not be disadvantaged by the unavailability of the penalty notice in these circumstances."

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kr96
post Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 12:42
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Thank you for the responses.

The central ticket office rang me back this morning confirming what you guys have said. They cannot prevent the case from going to court and they just advised me to fill in the forms and solve it in court.
They said to put down guilty for the speeding charge and not guilty for the failing to give information charge and to explain myself in court or on paper and that it should be fine. However going by what people have said in this forum it doesn't seem like the safety option and could end up getting 6 points. (how do you prove you DIDNT receive something?)

If I fill in the form and put not guilty for both charges, should I fill in the box for 'Not guilty because' or just leave it blank and explain it in court or to the prosecutor?

OR should I follow what they central ticket office people said to do and fill in the form saying guilty for speeding and not guilty for the other charge?

QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 08:40) *
Is your v5 address 100% correct?

Going not guilty and fighting the s172 could be risky - it has 6 points attached to it if found guilty along with prosecution costs.

We have once seen a court allow an awareness course to be taken but that is very very unusual. Asking for a fixed penalty equivalent fine (an no costs order) are likely to be the best you'll get following a plea bargain as you mention.

3 points may have an impact on your insurance - but generally you don't have to notify them until renewal, check your own terms.



Yes my v5 address is correct. I have received a few letters and my license at my address before. I had issues getting my insurance documents initially but I did manage to receive them after I asked them to resend it. I am not sure why I didn't receive these letters regarding the speeding offense but I wish that I did so I wouldn't have ended up in this mess.

Any idea how that indivdual went about getting the court to allow the awareness course and how I could go about doing the same?

Also when would you ask about the fixed penalty fine? Do you do this when you go to see the prosecutor before the hearing to offer to plead guilty for the speeding to drop other other charge, or during the actual court hearing??

Thanks
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The Rookie
post Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 13:08
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QUOTE (kr96 @ Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 12:42) *
They said to put down guilty for the speeding charge and not guilty for the failing to give information charge and to explain myself in court or on paper and that it should be fine. However going by what people have said in this forum it doesn't seem like the safety option and could end up getting 6 points. (how do you prove you DIDNT receive something?)

Dangerous advice, while many courts will drop the S172, we have seen a case where they still progressed it and the defendant ended up with 9 points.

Just tick not guilty for both, no need to add anything else at all, it won't help and can make it worse.

Credible verbal evidence proves you didn't receive something, what matters more was whether it was served!


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NewJudge
post Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 14:55
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QUOTE (kr96 @ Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 12:42) *
If I fill in the form and put not guilty for both charges, should I fill in the box for 'Not guilty because' or just leave it blank and explain it in court or to the prosecutor?

OR should I follow what they central ticket office people said to do and fill in the form saying guilty for speeding and not guilty for the other charge?

Just tick "Not Guilty" to both. You do not have to explain anything at this stage as the only thing that will happen is that the matter will be listed for a full court hearing. Do not plead guilty to speeding until you have secured your deal. As above, there is a danger that you may end up convicted on both counts.

QUOTE (kr96 @ Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 12:42) *
Any idea how that indivdual went about getting the court to allow the awareness course and how I could go about doing the same?


I wouldn't even bother. If I remember correctly the individual concerned had accepted the offer of a course but for some reason court action was still taken. Such circumstances are totally different to yours.

QUOTE (kr96 @ Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 12:42) *
Also when would you ask about the fixed penalty fine? Do you do this when you go to see the prosecutor before the hearing to offer to plead guilty for the speeding to drop other other charge, or during the actual court hearing??

You do this after you have secured your deal and entered a guilty plea to speeding. Some prosecutors may suggest to the court that a Fixed Penalty equivalent is appropriate. If not, ask the court yourself. You should be given the opportunity to speak before sentencing is undertaken.

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peterguk
post Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 15:27
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QUOTE (kr96 @ Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 12:42) *
Any idea how that indivdual went about getting the court to allow the awareness course and how I could go about doing the same?


The court had no authority to order a course. So don't hold any hope of getting one.

£100 fine and 3 points will be the best outcome.

Futhermore, if you can't rely on the business giving your mail to you, find an alternative address for your post to be sent to.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 15:28


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The Rookie
post Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 16:26
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 15:27) *
£70 fine plus £30 surcharge and 3 points will be the best outcome.

FTFY, Some courts keep the fine to £70 so the total is £100, others apply a fine of £100 and you have the £30 surcharge to pay on top.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
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Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
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Logician
post Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 16:39
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QUOTE (kr96 @ Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 12:42) *
Any idea how that indivdual went about getting the court to allow the awareness course and how I could go about doing the same?


If the case referred to was one I mentioned, the case was very unusual in that an offer of a course had been made but could not be taken up because of a local difficulty with course providers, the prosecutor knew of these difficulties and was so sympathetic that she rang the police to confirm that they would still be willing to offer a course, which they were, and suggested to the court that they consider adjourning the case for a period to allow a course to be taken, the difficulties having been resolved by the time the case got to court. She undertook that if a course was taken during the adjournment period, the charge would be withdrawn, but if it were not, the case would proceed. The court accepted this.

These circumstances were so particular to this case that to mention it is to give you a false hope, yours is a very standard case and in my view there is no prospect of anything similar being arranged, I think you should proceed on the basis suggested and accept that you will receive 3 points. As stated, 3 points is very unlikely to cause any significant increase in your insurance premium, if any at all. You will have to declare the points to your insurer, but most policies do not require this until renewal, if they make an impact then, shop around the market, which actually is good practice at any renewal.






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kr96
post Thu, 3 Jan 2019 - 13:22
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Thank you all for your replies again.

I shall go ahead with putting not guilty for both and hopefully following the same procedure as many have done before.

I just wanted to ask about some insight to the actual court hearing itself and what usually happens on the day?
What will I have to say and will I need to take anything with me like evidence? Would i require a solicitor as well?

QUOTE (peterguk @ Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 15:27) *
QUOTE (kr96 @ Wed, 2 Jan 2019 - 12:42) *
Any idea how that indivdual went about getting the court to allow the awareness course and how I could go about doing the same?


The court had no authority to order a course. So don't hold any hope of getting one.

£100 fine and 3 points will be the best outcome.

Futhermore, if you can't rely on the business giving your mail to you, find an alternative address for your post to be sent to.


I hope to move out once I have finished university this year so I just have to see it out for a few more months.

However I am worried I may have missed other letters and I dont want to go through this situation again.
Is there anyway of checking if there are any speeding or other offences against me right now or even parking tickets?
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Logician
post Thu, 3 Jan 2019 - 13:43
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QUOTE (kr96 @ Thu, 3 Jan 2019 - 13:22) *
Thank you all for your replies again. I shall go ahead with putting not guilty for both and hopefully following the same procedure as many have done before. I just wanted to ask about some insight to the actual court hearing itself and what usually happens on the day? What will I have to say and will I need to take anything with me like evidence? Would i require a solicitor as well? Is there anyway of checking if there are any speeding or other offences against me right now or even parking tickets?


Unfortunately there is no way of checking if any other offences are outstanding. There is no reason at all to get a solicitor involved.

Standard advice is:

Provided the speeding offence would attract less than 6 points on its own, you should plead Not Guilty to both offences, and then attend court on the date set, As there is no evidence as to who was driving your car, since you have not told them, there can be no conviction for the speeding unless you plead guilty. Get to court early and ask one of the ushers (people scurrying about with clipboards and possibly gowns getting things organised) to point out to you the prosecutor who will be dealing with traffic matters. Say to him/her that you will plead guilty to the speeding if they will drop the s.172. We have never heard of prosecutors refusing to do this, they prefer to get a conviction for the underlying offence, and regard the two offences as effectively alternative offences. If you do not manage to speak to the prosecutor beforehand, you should still be able to do the deal in the courtroom. It is very difficult to do this in advance of the court hearing as you would have trouble speaking to the right person.

If you had received the NIP you could have nominated yourself as the driver and would then have received the offer of a fixed penalty. The normal sentencing for speeding in court would be rather more severe than this, so you would have been disadvantaged. Therefore you should point this out to the court and request to be sentenced at the fixed penalty level, which is a guideline for magistrates' courts in these circumstances. The actual wording of the guideline is:

Where a penalty notice could not be offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender, the starting point should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be imposed. The offender should not be disadvantaged by the unavailability of the penalty notice in these circumstances







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kr96
post Sat, 5 Jan 2019 - 19:31
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QUOTE (Logician @ Thu, 3 Jan 2019 - 13:43) *
QUOTE (kr96 @ Thu, 3 Jan 2019 - 13:22) *
Thank you all for your replies again. I shall go ahead with putting not guilty for both and hopefully following the same procedure as many have done before. I just wanted to ask about some insight to the actual court hearing itself and what usually happens on the day? What will I have to say and will I need to take anything with me like evidence? Would i require a solicitor as well? Is there anyway of checking if there are any speeding or other offences against me right now or even parking tickets?


Unfortunately there is no way of checking if any other offences are outstanding. There is no reason at all to get a solicitor involved.

Standard advice is:

Provided the speeding offence would attract less than 6 points on its own, you should plead Not Guilty to both offences, and then attend court on the date set, As there is no evidence as to who was driving your car, since you have not told them, there can be no conviction for the speeding unless you plead guilty. Get to court early and ask one of the ushers (people scurrying about with clipboards and possibly gowns getting things organised) to point out to you the prosecutor who will be dealing with traffic matters. Say to him/her that you will plead guilty to the speeding if they will drop the s.172. We have never heard of prosecutors refusing to do this, they prefer to get a conviction for the underlying offence, and regard the two offences as effectively alternative offences. If you do not manage to speak to the prosecutor beforehand, you should still be able to do the deal in the courtroom. It is very difficult to do this in advance of the court hearing as you would have trouble speaking to the right person.

If you had received the NIP you could have nominated yourself as the driver and would then have received the offer of a fixed penalty. The normal sentencing for speeding in court would be rather more severe than this, so you would have been disadvantaged. Therefore you should point this out to the court and request to be sentenced at the fixed penalty level, which is a guideline for magistrates' courts in these circumstances. The actual wording of the guideline is:

Where a penalty notice could not be offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender, the starting point should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be imposed. The offender should not be disadvantaged by the unavailability of the penalty notice in these circumstances






Cheers for the info.

Can I ask the prosecutor to be fined at a fixed penalty level or will I have to do this after I give my plea in the actual hearing itself?


In regards to the fine, I am having trouble filling in the Statement of Means (MC100) form about my income and outgoings.

I have a part time job for a security company where I do stewarding/security at the local football stadium when there is a match on. However this role is very part time and irregular in the sense the the number of matches in a month are not the same and often chose not to work many of the matches.
They text me a week before the match asking if I would like to work and I repsond yes or no to work that shift. Therefore there isn't a regular amount that I earn as I don't work a lot of the games available due to not geting time to attend.
So how would I fill the form in to show this as it asks for a net pay in either weekly, fortnightly or montly.

I am a student so I receive a student loan, however I am not sure where to show this on the form and I dont feel like i should leave it out so any advice on this?

Also the numbers that I put down for my outgoings, will I have to provide any evidence for this? Will this impact the fine if I am not able to get them to fine me to a fixed penalty level.

Sorry for all the questions. I feel like all these questions requires a post of its own rolleyes.gif
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NewJudge
post Sat, 5 Jan 2019 - 23:19
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QUOTE (kr96 @ Sat, 5 Jan 2019 - 19:31) *
Can I ask the prosecutor to be fined at a fixed penalty level or will I have to do this after I give my plea in the actual hearing itself?

It's not the prosecutor who you ask. He or she will provide the court with the details of your offence and (provided you have secured your "deal") explain that the "Fail to Provide" offence is to be dropped. The prosecutor may go on to suggest to the court that a fixed penalty equivalent is appropriate but has no obligation to do so. If it is not mentioned then you should ask yourself.

QUOTE (kr96 @ Sat, 5 Jan 2019 - 19:31) *
In regards to the fine, I am having trouble filling in the Statement of Means (MC100) form about my income and outgoings.

I have a part time job for a security company where I do stewarding/security at the local football stadium when there is a match on. However this role is very part time and irregular in the sense the the number of matches in a month are not the same and often chose not to work many of the matches.
They text me a week before the match asking if I would like to work and I repsond yes or no to work that shift. Therefore there isn't a regular amount that I earn as I don't work a lot of the games available due to not geting time to attend.
So how would I fill the form in to show this as it asks for a net pay in either weekly, fortnightly or montly.

I am a student so I receive a student loan, however I am not sure where to show this on the form and I dont feel like i should leave it out so any advice on this?

Also the numbers that I put down for my outgoings, will I have to provide any evidence for this? Will this impact the fine if I am not able to get them to fine me to a fixed penalty level.

Sorry for all the questions. I feel like all these questions requires a post of its own rolleyes.gif

If you are to be fined at the FP level then your income is irrelevant. However you should complete the means form to the best of your ability. Simply take an average of your earnings over, say the past few months. Your outgoings are not particularly relevant unless they are unusual but they may be considered if you want to pay by instalments. On that point you may struggle to get the court to accept this as they may take the view that had you accepted a fixed penalty in the normal way no instalment option would have been available. However, no harm in asking.

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southpaw82
post Sat, 5 Jan 2019 - 23:29
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Sat, 5 Jan 2019 - 23:19) *
The prosecutor may go on to suggest to the court that a fixed penalty equivalent is appropriate but has no obligation to do so.

If the prosecutor is a lawyer they are under a professional obligation to assist the court, which includes pointing out relevant sentencing guidelines (unless things have really slipped in the lower courts over there).


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kr96
post Sun, 6 Jan 2019 - 22:49
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Hello,
I have received a Single Justice Procedure Notice about speeding and failure to give information charges which I plan to plead not guilty to in order to go into court and try to do a plea bargin where I ask to accept to speeding charge if the other dropped is charged. I will also try to ask for the fine to be fixed penalty equivalent.

I am in the process of filling in the SJPN form and the Statement of Means form that comes with it about my income and outgoings.

However the problem I have is that if they check my details through my national insurance number (which you have to provide) they will find a different address.

The reason for this is because I moved when uni started so the address on my license, car insurance and V5 is my current address, but the address that would be shown by HMRC or by my national insurance number is my old address.

I have not been trying to commit any type of fraud. My old address is my parents house and I honestly forgot to ring up and let them know that I have moved for uni. I have just realised now as i was filling in the form.


How much are they likely to look into this and notice? I am currently panicking and worried as I do not want this situation to get any worse and have any more issues to deal with later on.


I understand that the Statement of Means form is for deciding the fine given out by the court based on income. Will they realise or question me on why the address is different even if I get a fixed penalty equivalent fine?


I have read that if you do not fill in the form and return it, they assume an income for you and fine you according to that. The problem with that is that figure is likey to be much higher and lead to a higher fine that I should get as I am a student who would have a low income.

- Should I fill in the form & return the form and hope that it doesn't cause a problem later on
- Should I NOT fill in the form and hope to be fined at a fixed penalty level
- Will NOT returning the form make me look bad at court and effect my plea deal chances for fine?
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cp8759
post Sun, 6 Jan 2019 - 22:50
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There is no statutory requirement to update the address that HMRC have on file for you, it's not like your V5C address. You're worrying over nothing.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Sun, 6 Jan 2019 - 22:50


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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The Rookie
post Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 08:52
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Unless they have reason to believe you're telling porkies they make no checks at all.

While not providing information (or providing incorrect information) is an offence, its often possible to be able to justify slightly lower figures, for example items on 'salary sacrifice' (sometimes called 'smart pay' for those who get negative connotations) isn't strictly pay so need not be included.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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