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Future steps notice and ms90
RossUK
post Thu, 20 Dec 2018 - 20:42
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So now I have got one kinda nearly resolved I need to look at getting this sorted out.

So here is what went on and why am seeking your advise.

Basically back in on 2nd Feb I was in the process of moving from one address to another. Now within this time frame I had already done all the necessary steps to update my Logbook and also my drivers licence. As I did this 1 week before moving out. My new licence come though at my new address with all new details on dated 03/02/18 My log book took a little longer and has the date on it 12/02/18 both of witch where sent off more less the same time. I received licence about the 5feb few days after moving in. My logbook was not until about the 16th or 16th of Feb so all in good time I thought.

I had received a future steps notice letter on the 11th Dec last week enclosed.

Attached Image


So I was like what the heck is going on here and in shock and panic seeing £811 fine. I was like ok time to do some phoning in the morning. The first thing I did as it was out of hours when I got in was checked my licence online.

I had received the following 1x fine of £660 plus 6 points and an MS90 failure to provide information of who driver was or submit information to who driver of car is. on the future steps notice ~I see this has gone upto £811
I am guessing for court costs and administration and so on?

In the morning the first contact was DVLA to find out more information. They advised that this was applied on to my licences in March due to not providing information and hence MS90 6 points and fine. I said ok where has this come from. They advised to contract central ticket office.

So my next call was to them provided my info and they said yes please confirm your address. They said that is not the address we have I advised ok then is it possibly my old address gave them my details and said yes this is correct. They proceed to ask me did I update my licence and log book I advised yes gave dates of when everything was updated.

They said this can be a common problem when changing addresses and delays of processing takes place. I said can you provide me any info to help regarding times dates area when this happened or what its for.

They proceeded with the following on the 11th Feb you where doing 39 in a 30 zone at 6:10pm.

Now I have looked at the area of where this was and it was pitch black and bad weather on the day not that am not denying speeding as I will hold my hands up and admit am guilty of this offence.

I have driven for nearly 6 years and no points no fines no tickets no nothing ever. I am a careful cautious driver but on this instant I had no idea that I had broke the speed limmit as I was unaware of the actual speed for the road and section as I was coming up the hill rather than where this picture shows going down due to no sign posting and also speed camera impossible to see. As pictured below.

Attached Image


Could this be argued that it is impossible to see the camera is visible and their is no visible sings to say what speed this section or are is. And looking at the time this was a recent google image on google maps from 2018 and currently I have noticed as I have since passed it the are again last week. I have see that this has all been cut well back now and you can actually see clearly the cam is in sight however in my case its impossible to see. Could this be challenged?

So after speaking to central tickets office I proceed to speak to the people has sent the letter out and spoke to them advising to them this letter you have sent me is the first contact regarding the matter. I had advised I have since been on the phone this morning chasing round and seeing what has gone on and told them the situation.

They said ull need to phone the courts who sent and also contact local court to do a Stat det swearing under oath and confirm you have received nothing due to change of address as explained. I have since been given a time and date in Jan to do this and I have since spoke to the people who have sent the future steps notice and they have advised me everything will be placed on hold and no future action will be taken will be taken and placed on hold till after the hearing at court to do a stat declaration.


The questions I have are as follows.

1 If I have changed all my details followed all steps to update my documents and licence for changing address etc and the offence was committed on the 11th Feb and they where sending correspondence to old address yet my Logbook change of address was processed on the 12th Feb 1 day after the offence happened are they that quick at checking logbook information or will they have requested on from DVLA at the time of the offence committed what address was showing on the registered keepers info on that date?

2 Why would it take 9 months later just receive a future steps notice. I am presuming they re checked addresses again and found new address.

3 When doing the stat declaration how would I plead as I have seen mixed ms90s on here saying that one will also need to plead guilty or not guilty at the time after doing the stat det.

Do I plead not guilty to the MS90 and guilty to the orignal speeding fine or do I plead not guilty to both as I know the MS90 is failing to submit provide info from an s172 Notice of intended prosecution. Request for information to identify of driver of vehicle. Had I of received this letter to my current address then I would of filled this out and sent straight back.

4 with regards to the orignal speeding offence 39 in a 30 zone I also asked at the ticket office what the penalty of this would be? I was advised I would of been given a speed awareness course. But because it has gone to court action this can no longer be offered and would get 3 points £100 fine providing it reverts back. Could this be also channelled or not a leg to stand on and get any action to getting a speed awareness course?


5 My biggest problem is my insurance. I have yet to inform them of all this of what has gone on.

When I renewed my insurance none of this was on my licence nor was I aware of anything at the time and the offence happened after it in the process of me changing address and I was still unaware of all this when updating my information to my new address.

Do I contact my insurance with everything that is going on or do I leave it until I have proceed to going court in JAN as other cases on here people have reported to insurance and had their insurance policy cancelled or where told have 7 days to get it removed or it would be cancelled. What would best be advised here? Do I wait to go to court and see what happens and end result and then proceed to telling them of the whole situation or do I contact them now while everything is still going on?

I hope you people here can come to my rescue and help me. Thank you.

This post has been edited by RossUK: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 - 20:46
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post Thu, 20 Dec 2018 - 20:42
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Jlc
post Thu, 20 Dec 2018 - 20:59
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QUOTE (RossUK @ Thu, 20 Dec 2018 - 20:42) *
Could this be argued that it is impossible to see the camera is visible and their is no visible sings to say what speed this section or are is. And looking at the time this was a recent google image on google maps from 2018 and currently I have noticed as I have since passed it the are again last week. I have see that this has all been cut well back now and you can actually see clearly the cam is in sight however in my case its impossible to see. Could this be challenged?

The visibility of the camera is irrelevant. Are there streetlights?

QUOTE (RossUK @ Thu, 20 Dec 2018 - 20:42) *
1 If I have changed all my details followed all steps to update my documents and licence for changing address etc and the offence was committed on the 11th Feb and they where sending correspondence to old address yet my Logbook change of address was processed on the 12th Feb 1 day after the offence happened are they that quick at checking logbook information or will they have requested on from DVLA at the time of the offence committed what address was showing on the registered keepers info on that date?

The Police use their own system which is a copy of the DVLA's database. It can lag a little but the lookup may have happened quickly.

QUOTE (RossUK @ Thu, 20 Dec 2018 - 20:42) *
2 Why would it take 9 months later just receive a future steps notice. I am presuming they re checked addresses again and found new address.

This is normal - the prosecution is often commenced around 6 months after the offence and it takes them a little time after that. (You were found guilty in absence)

QUOTE (RossUK @ Thu, 20 Dec 2018 - 20:42) *
3 When doing the stat declaration how would I plead as I have seen mixed ms90s on here saying that one will also need to plead guilty or not guilty at the time after doing the stat det.

Do I plead not guilty to the MS90 and guilty to the orignal speeding fine or do I plead not guilty to both as I know the MS90 is failing to submit provide info from an s172 Notice of intended prosecution. Request for information to identify of driver of vehicle. Had I of received this letter to my current address then I would of filled this out and sent straight back.

You will almost certainly be asked submit a plea after the SD. Some courts may be prepared to do a 'deal' straight away - that is to offer to plead guilty to the speeding if they drop the s172. However, this is not always the case and you may have to maintain a not guilty plea and come back another day.

This is all assuming the speeding charge was originally pursued.

QUOTE (RossUK @ Thu, 20 Dec 2018 - 20:42) *
4 with regards to the orignal speeding offence 39 in a 30 zone I also asked at the ticket office what the penalty of this would be? I was advised I would of been given a speed awareness course. But because it has gone to court action this can no longer be offered and would get 3 points £100 fine providing it reverts back. Could this be also channelled or not a leg to stand on and get any action to getting a speed awareness course?

You can ask for a fixed penalty equivalent sentence. Best case is a £70 fine, no costs and £30 surcharge. No course I'm afraid.

QUOTE (RossUK @ Thu, 20 Dec 2018 - 20:42) *
5 My biggest problem is my insurance. I have yet to inform them of all this of what has gone on.

Then tell them.

QUOTE (RossUK @ Thu, 20 Dec 2018 - 20:42) *
When I renewed my insurance none of this was on my licence nor was I aware of anything at the time and the offence happened after it in the process of me changing address and I was still unaware of all this when updating my information to my new address.

Do I contact my insurance with everything that is going on or do I leave it until I have proceed to going court in JAN as other cases on here people have reported to insurance and had their insurance policy cancelled or where told have 7 days to get it removed or it would be cancelled. What would best be advised here? Do I wait to go to court and see what happens and end result and then proceed to telling them of the whole situation or do I contact them now while everything is still going on?

If ever in doubt with an insurer, disclose.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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RossUK
post Thu, 20 Dec 2018 - 21:20
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QUOTE
You can ask for a fixed penalty equivalent sentence. Best case is a £70 fine, no costs and £30 surcharge. No course I'm afraid.


Would this mean no options or still points applied?
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NewJudge
post Thu, 20 Dec 2018 - 21:49
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The fixed penalty (FP) is £100 and three points. If the court agrees to sentence you at the FP equivalent you should be fined £70, pay a £30 "Victim Surcharge" (VS) and received three points (the court has no option but to impose the VS so the usual disposal is to reduce the fine to £70 to keep the total to £100).

This is the absolute best you will get.

Just for information the original £811 was made up of a fine of £660, £66 VS and £85 costs. The fine is calculated by one and a half week's net income and the assumed net income is £440 when no other information is available.
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Jlc
post Thu, 20 Dec 2018 - 22:56
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Sorry, it would be 3 points as well. (I believe we have once seen a court allow a course to be taken but it's not normal practice)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 - 22:57


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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RossUK
post Sat, 5 Jan 2019 - 23:03
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 20 Dec 2018 - 22:56) *
Sorry, it would be 3 points as well. (I believe we have once seen a court allow a course to be taken but it's not normal practice)



Thank you for the advise.

I am due in court on the 8th Jan to do my SD and seen above no doubt will be having to plead. In my case I am believing to plead not guilty since I have not received any documents.

Also you said

QUOTE
You will almost certainly be asked submit a plea after the SD. Some courts may be prepared to do a 'deal' straight away - that is to offer to plead guilty to the speeding if they drop the s172. However, this is not always the case and you may have to maintain a not guilty plea and come back another day.


So am I pleading guilty to the orignal speeding offence and not guilty to the s172, ms90

Would I go along the lines of I am pleading guilty to the speeding offence and I am pealing not guilty to the s172 in light of changing of address and DVLA not updating their records in time. What would best course of action to take.

Or do I go along the lines I am pleading guilty to the speeding so long as the s172 is drooped as a plead barging?
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Logician
post Sun, 6 Jan 2019 - 00:38
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Plead not guilty to both offences until you have agreement from the prosecution that they will drop the s.172 if you plead guilty to the speeding. Then you change your plea to guilty for the speeding.


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RossUK
post Sun, 6 Jan 2019 - 01:24
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QUOTE (Logician @ Sun, 6 Jan 2019 - 00:38) *
Plead not guilty to both offences until you have agreement from the prosecution that they will drop the s.172 if you plead guilty to the speeding. Then you change your plea to guilty for the speeding.



Thank you.
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RossUK
post Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 12:36
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So currently waiting in court. Hoping get some advise before being seen.

Attached Image


Just been given some documents and they have not outlined the original offense for the speeding and they only have failing to submit information of driver.

Does this mean to still put a plead of not guilty in to open it and trail to a later date to get original offence looked into or plead guilty as before so long as theirs an agreement from prosecution??
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Jlc
post Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 13:04
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If you plead guilty to that charge then you'll simply be sentenced and then that's it. (6 points, ~100% weekly earnings, costs of £85 and 10% surcharge)

They may not have pursued the underlying speeding charge so resurrecting it may be harder. Ask the prosecution if they would consider dropping the s172 charge if you plead guilty to the speeding.

They may simply accept that. If not, then you have a choice. Either plead guilty as above to the s172 or decide to fight the charge. The fine would then be ~150% and costs could exceed £300 should you be convicted.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 13:04


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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RossUK
post Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 13:16
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 13:04) *
If you plead guilty to that charge then you'll simply be sentenced and then that's it. (6 points, ~100% weekly earnings, costs of £85 and 10% surcharge)

They may not have pursued the underlying speeding charge so resurrecting it may be harder. Ask the prosecution if they would consider dropping the s172 charge if you plead guilty to the speeding.

They may simply accept that. If not, then you have a choice. Either plead guilty as above to the s172 or decide to fight the charge. The fine would then be ~150% and costs could exceed £300 should you be convicted.



Have just got out. Done SD and advised with what they are proceeding is the s172 and have to goto trail and I can then open case again. They have also advised sometime this week DVLA will be informed of it and it to be removed and to revert to original proceedings where i can then contest why i failed to supply information. Was no mention about original offence of speeding. Does this mean it will be opend and then I can proceed about both if their is no mention of the speeding offense does this mean that possibly everything could get over turned and case closed? Or they will reopen with under lining the original speeding offense?

Thanks in advance.
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The Rookie
post Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 14:09
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If speeding wasn’t on the original summons they can’t resurrect it.

As you appear to have a decent defence I’d be running with that in your shoes.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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Jlc
post Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 14:12
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 14:09) *
If speeding wasn’t on the original summons they can’t resurrect it.

Whilst it can be difficult we have seen it happen - but don't plan for it.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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RossUK
post Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 14:25
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At rookie and jlc thank you and jlc thank you once again. Saved me a lot of head ache this place has and also no doubt on legal advise and fees from solicitors.

My next question is regarding trial.

How does this play out as am new to all this I get I have right plead etc. Would it be advised to have a solicitor present with me or do they also have duty solicitors that cover the filds I need, as today when I asked they said only have legal advisors and the duty solicitors don't cover area of what I need. And the trial is to be heald at a different court.

What would be best option get a solicitor and stand with me or stand in own and do all myself as I come out of court today nearly having a panic attack with all the waiting about. Me and waiting and all this feels too much for me but I guess got though one lot bits but I know trial gonna be more pressure and time
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cp8759
post Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 14:26
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 14:12) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 14:09) *
If speeding wasn’t on the original summons they can’t resurrect it.

Whilst it can be difficult we have seen it happen - but don't plan for it.

It's past the six month limit so nothing they can do at this point.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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The Rookie
post Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 14:56
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I meant they can’t resurrect it and try the OP for it as per the question asked.

You don’t need a solicitor, your defence is one of reasonably practicability as I see it, you did everything reasonable to ensure you were contactable as the registered keeper by send the V5c for updating promptly and it’s no fault of your own that the alleged offence occurred in the time while DVLA were slow in updating the details on the system.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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RossUK
post Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 15:05
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 14:56) *
I meant they can’t resurrect it and try the OP for it as per the question asked.

You don’t need a solicitor, your defence is one of reasonably practicability as I see it, you did everything reasonable to ensure you were contactable as the registered keeper by send the V5c for updating promptly and it’s no fault of your own that the alleged offence occurred in the time while DVLA were slow in updating the details on the system.



Thanks again. Guess I need to get all me letters and notes together and get them in preparation and something I can present in the trial. As now got more less all the information times dates of everything that has gone on when whats happened etc.

Ye had I got all info then I would of proceeded to filling out n following normal proceeding.

And the dates piss me off to say the least with DVLA as they updated records on the 12th Feb and the orignal offence happened on the 11th and my application I sent to them was roughly 2 to 3 weeks before I moved in to my address on the 2nd FEB back towards end of 2nd week of Jan. And then to top that off 9 months later I get a letter though with all the above in with future steps notice fine and points. Guess they had checked the details again and then now sent on to my new address. Had DVLA updated then would not have had all this. Guess in future if changing address to send 1 to 2 months in advance.
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 15:18
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Or have redirection in place, and chase them up if you dont get the new one back in time.
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RossUK
post Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 00:28
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Had a letter come though to confirm court hearing date as they have took my stat and everything now removed from my licence and no points or ms90 against my name. Am I right to say this has now been reverted to stage 1 and I will go to trial to plea my grounds and state everything?

This post has been edited by RossUK: Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 00:29
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The Rookie
post Thu, 7 Feb 2019 - 01:13
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Yes.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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