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Ran red light by accident, got T boned- advice much appreciated., Threads merged
surfer91919
post Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 14:32
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Hi all,

I'm new here and would be very grateful for your opinions on my predicament.

Last Sunday I was driving to the leisure centre on my own (where I also work in the attached college). This involves crossing a roundabout which I've driven probably over a thousand times. Unfortunately on this day I had a lapse of concentration and ran a red light. I literally have no memory of what colour the light was but it must have patently been red. The lights are on timers which vary depending on traffic on the different roads. In the morning when I usually drive on this roundabout, you typically go straight through after waiting at the first set of lights. On this day I waited at the first set of lights but ran through the second set which must have been on red.
I also didn't see the car coming to T bone me as i'd have had to have been driving along with my head over my left shoulder to see (it wouldn't have been visible in my mirrors either).

As I was exiting the roundabout (obviously crossing a lane which I shouldn't have been in) I was struck on my passenger side rear wheel by another vehicle driven by a nurse on her way to work (no other passengers). This caused my car to spin round around 180 degrees. The first point of contact was my rear nearside wheel and the damage included both the doors being totally bent in, the B pillar, edge of the roof and sill all damaged/ crushed in- a write off for sure considering it's a 21 year old mercedes C class. After the police had left the other car (Ford Edge Titanium) drove away without any obvious severe damage- nothing hanging off, no broken lights or issues with the radiator. The bumper looked a bit frilly. I wouldn't be surprised if it's written off though. Air bags did not deploy in either car.
Luckily there were no injuries whatsoever reported, even I was fine despite taking the lions share of the damage and already having chronic whiplash which flares up if I neglect doing yoga.

Naturally I'm mortified and am questioning my basic competence in life and feeling very low and depressed. If it had been a motorcyclist I'm not sure I would be able to live with myself. As it is I have been considering moving to a city for a new life where I wouldn't need to drive anymore.

There were no aggravating factors and I was very apologetic. No ambulace or fire brigade attendance. A passer by called the cops. I had a 0 reading on a breath test and everything with my car checked out fine in terms of insurance and roadworthiness. I called my breakdown recovery to collect my car and take it back to my workshop.

The traffic cop said he would report me for careless driving and running a red light but that I should realise that noone was hurt. I admitted fault and that i must have run a red light by accident but when I was asked by the cop what colour the light was I replied that I didn't register it but that I accept it must have been red.

I currently have no active points on my licence (held for 12 years), I had an sp30 over 3 years ago for doing 80 in a 60 at 2am on an A road. I also had a minor scrape in a car park around the same time (noone in the car, minimal damage). Never had an awareness course.

Can anyone advise what the punishment is likely to be for this? I've already read the ACPO guidelines and sentencing guidance on careless driving and this offence appears to be at the lower end of the spectrum and, were it not for being reported for two offence codes for the one illegal action, I may possibly be offered an awareness course as the ACPO advocate driver education whenever possible for offences reuslting in collisions which didn't have serious consequences.

I've been advised by a friend who's a solicitor that if I have to attend the magistrates court that I should wear a suit, be extremely remorseful (I would be/ am anyway), emphasise the extreme hardship and loss of employment which a ban would result in and accept a fine (according to sentencing guidelines around a weeks wages) and points (he thought 4-6 points).

I'm not looking for a way of getting out of this in any way, just wondered if anyone had had a similar experience.

I was a passenger in a car around 4 years ago which was driving at 65mph in thick fog on a B road. Two of the other passengers asked the driver to slow down, which he ignored, then spun the car on a corner causing it to hit a hedge and roll. The girl in the front passenger seat has a lifelong elbow injury from this as well as whiplash and I also had whiplash. He got an awareness course. As such I feel it would be unfair if I was to be punished more severely but I'm not sure if it would be worth appealing if were to be?

The only observations I've had since is that I don't think there'd have been a collision if there was a stream of cars in that lane when approached the white line. There's no way I'd have plowed head on into a stream of cars. it's one thing misssing a traffic light but another to plow into a load of cars. Once I'd missed the red light there was very little I could've done to avoid a collision as the oncoming car was hard to see and I was already travelling away from the oncoming car at the point of impact. I don't think she braked at all looking at the damage (30 limit, seemed about a 30mph impact). Not criticising her as I shouldn't have been there, just observing.

Any thoughts much appreciated

This post has been edited by surfer91919: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 14:45
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post Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 14:32
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mickR
post Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 14:38
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What exactly is your question? huh.gif
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surfer91919
post Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 14:47
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QUOTE (mickR @ Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 14:38) *
What exactly is your question? huh.gif


What is the likely punishment for this offence(s)? Sorry for the rambling post, I thought the whole incident would need describing
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BaggieBoy
post Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 15:08
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QUOTE (surfer91919 @ Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 14:47) *
What is the likely punishment for this offence(s)?

It might be deemed a category 2 offence due to vehicle damage, so 4-6 points is possible.

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offenc...n-revised-2017/

If they also prosecuted the red light offence (they may not), since it is only a 3 point offence, no extra points would be awarded but the combined fine could be large.

This post has been edited by BaggieBoy: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 15:09
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surfer91919
post Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 15:26
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QUOTE (BaggieBoy @ Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 15:08) *
QUOTE (surfer91919 @ Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 14:47) *
What is the likely punishment for this offence(s)?

It might be deemed a category 2 offence due to vehicle damage, so 4-6 points is possible.

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offenc...n-revised-2017/

If they also prosecuted the red light offence (they may not), since it is only a 3 point offence, no extra points would be awarded but the combined fine could be large.


Thank you for the advice.
By large do you mean it could be thousands? The careless driving fine for category 2 offence appeared to be up to 125% of my weekly income iirc. So thats about 200 quid, plus a hundred quid for running the red light or is there some clause about combined fines being multiplied in some way?

Thanks again
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gilan02
post Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 15:38
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You only earn £160 a week?
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BaggieBoy
post Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 15:46
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QUOTE (surfer91919 @ Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 15:26) *
is there some clause about combined fines being multiplied in some way?

No, just the normal fine for each offence.
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surfer91919
post Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 16:13
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QUOTE (gilan02 @ Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 15:38) *
You only earn £160 a week?


My wage is 800 a month. I live a very frugal lifestyle!
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666
post Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 21:35
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QUOTE (surfer91919 @ Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 14:32) *
Can anyone advise what the punishment is likely to be for this? I've already read the ACPO guidelines and sentencing guidance on careless driving and this offence appears to be at the lower end of the spectrum and, were it not for being reported for two offence codes for the one illegal action,

From your description, there were two illegal actions. First, the red light, and second, changing lanes without due care.
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surfer91919
post Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 22:15
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QUOTE (666 @ Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 21:35) *
QUOTE (surfer91919 @ Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 14:32) *
Can anyone advise what the punishment is likely to be for this? I've already read the ACPO guidelines and sentencing guidance on careless driving and this offence appears to be at the lower end of the spectrum and, were it not for being reported for two offence codes for the one illegal action,

From your description, there were two illegal actions. First, the red light, and second, changing lanes without due care.


The lane change happens before the traffic light, designated with a left turn arrow before the white line. Once you're in that lane you can't exit the roundabout off any other exit, so there is no lane change beyond the traffic light.
On all the legal sites I've been on most of them list accidentally going through a red light as an actual example of careless driving, so still none the wiser as to the two offence codes being applied at the same event.

I don't know though- he's the traffic cop and I'm the incompetent driver. If I don't get offered any sort of education I may do a safe and considerate driving course anyway as I feel without that I could be missing something which could cause further accidents.

This post has been edited by surfer91919: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 22:30
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peterguk
post Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 22:25
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QUOTE (surfer91919 @ Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 22:15) *
On all the legal sites I've been on most of them list accidentally going through a red light as an actual example of careless driving, so still none the wiser as to the two offence codes being applied at the same event.


Have you received a summons?

If not, then you haven't been charged with any offences yet.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 22:37


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surfer91919
post Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 11:10
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 22:25) *
QUOTE (surfer91919 @ Fri, 16 Nov 2018 - 22:15) *
On all the legal sites I've been on most of them list accidentally going through a red light as an actual example of careless driving, so still none the wiser as to the two offence codes being applied at the same event.


Have you received a summons?

If not, then you haven't been charged with any offences yet.


Nothing yet. Just a letter from the cops saying that they are investigating. I dare say they're looking at cctv to see if i was on the phone or something.
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DancingDad
post Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 17:11
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I'm confused.
You don't know what colour the light was but accept it must have been red. Why?
You are shunted at the rear and accept it was your fault. Why?

You seem to have accepted all responsibility but nothing in your description suggests more then inattention and that it is just as likely that the other party jumped her red light.
Unless there is something that makes you certain of your fault, you seem to have handed the cops a scapegoat on a plate. Not too mention insurance.
For future reference, do not lie but never admit to something you are not sure of.
Doesn't help in your present case unless the lights follow a sequence that you can identify which may cast doubt on your belief.
You say that typically the second set are in sequence with the first set, I would be double checking, camp out with a camera and a flask of something hot if needs be, see if they are in sequence or if your guess that you jumped the second on red could be true.
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The Rookie
post Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 17:37
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 17:11) *
You are shunted at the rear and accept it was your fault. Why?

He says he was T-boned, not shunted from the rear?


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DancingDad
post Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 18:53
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 17:37) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 17:11) *
You are shunted at the rear and accept it was your fault. Why?

He says he was T-boned, not shunted from the rear?


Struck on the rear wheel and could not see the approaching car as he would have had to have been looking over his shoulder.... to me that is being hit from behind.
I fully accept that the other driver may have been blameless but to me, every time I see an accident where damage is to the rear, even if side rear, I wonder if the other driver was awake.
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surfer91919
post Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 19:23
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 17:11) *
I'm confused.
You don't know what colour the light was but accept it must have been red. Why?
You are shunted at the rear and accept it was your fault. Why?

You seem to have accepted all responsibility but nothing in your description suggests more then inattention and that it is just as likely that the other party jumped her red light.
Unless there is something that makes you certain of your fault, you seem to have handed the cops a scapegoat on a plate. Not too mention insurance.
For future reference, do not lie but never admit to something you are not sure of.
Doesn't help in your present case unless the lights follow a sequence that you can identify which may cast doubt on your belief.
You say that typically the second set are in sequence with the first set, I would be double checking, camp out with a camera and a flask of something hot if needs be, see if they are in sequence or if your guess that you jumped the second on red could be true.


On the balance of it I reckon the light would've been red, it usually is at the second set but in the mornings when it's congested it was green the last few days before last weekend. I've watched cars navigate the roundabout in the middle of the day since the accident and they were all stopping half way round.
As to why I capitulated, I'm not sure. I've been overwrought and stressed recently, lacking clear thought even of simple things... going around in a haze of racing thoughts. A few things have led to this- a breakup, a complaint against me at work and a difficult home life.

The cops say they are doing an investigation, shall I phone them and ask for proof I ran the red light seeing as I was inattentive and don't actually know? I feel it would be reasonable for them to supply that as soon as they have it, similar to when you can request a photo of your car speeding?
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surfer91919
post Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 19:42
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 18:53) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 17:37) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 17:11) *
You are shunted at the rear and accept it was your fault. Why?

He says he was T-boned, not shunted from the rear?


Struck on the rear wheel and could not see the approaching car as he would have had to have been looking over his shoulder.... to me that is being hit from behind.
I fully accept that the other driver may have been blameless but to me, every time I see an accident where damage is to the rear, even if side rear, I wonder if the other driver was awake.


I have been leaning towards this view over the last few days.

I thought about the countless times I've had right of way when driving down an A road at 50 or 60mph and someone has lazily pulled out of a junction right across my bows, sometimes without looking. Every time, I reacted and braked very hard, ABS sometimes coming on and on some occasions manouvred to avoid them. If I had just gone "I have right of way I'm keeping going" I could've T boned a few cars by now which had in actuality commited a careless driving offence but my instinct is to avoid a collision even if the other car shouldn't be there or is at fault.

I do not believe the lady who hit me (first strike being the rear passenger wheel) was fully awake- judging by the damage she didn't brake. The speed limit is 30mph. The damage to my car stars at the rear passenger wheel but really dug into the passenger front door. An impact at say 20mph or less I don't think would've caused this level of damage. Since I was driving away from her (albeit at an angle) she provided all of the impact and also had full view of the whole roundabout from her approach.

My view now that I've settled a bit is that it usually takes two to have a collision especially in this sort of situation. It's highly likely (almost certain) I ran a red light because I was inattentive and I will take the rap for that but feel somewhat hard done by if I'm deemed to have comitted a category 2 offence (due to vehicle damage) when I was actually driving away from the car which hit me.
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DancingDad
post Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 19:44
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QUOTE (surfer91919 @ Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 19:23) *
........The cops say they are doing an investigation, shall I phone them and ask for proof I ran the red light seeing as I was inattentive and don't actually know? I feel it would be reasonable for them to supply that as soon as they have it, similar to when you can request a photo of your car speeding?


The investigation will likely be paperwork being passed to the powers that be to decide if to prosecute and if so, what to charge and or offer.
It is very unlikely IMO that the cops will be doing any active investigation, no one injured, one party seeming to be accepting blame, can't see them spending any time on it except for paperwork.
I would not chase them, if you reckon jumping the red is possible, just put it behind you and wait to see what comes.
We can then advise sensibly, there is no point in worrying on it until it happens, then work out best way to deal with it.

My comments were more for the future then to knock you or deride, apologies if it came out that way.
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surfer91919
post Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 20:22
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 19:44) *
QUOTE (surfer91919 @ Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 19:23) *
........The cops say they are doing an investigation, shall I phone them and ask for proof I ran the red light seeing as I was inattentive and don't actually know? I feel it would be reasonable for them to supply that as soon as they have it, similar to when you can request a photo of your car speeding?


The investigation will likely be paperwork being passed to the powers that be to decide if to prosecute and if so, what to charge and or offer.
It is very unlikely IMO that the cops will be doing any active investigation, no one injured, one party seeming to be accepting blame, can't see them spending any time on it except for paperwork.
I would not chase them, if you reckon jumping the red is possible, just put it behind you and wait to see what comes.
We can then advise sensibly, there is no point in worrying on it until it happens, then work out best way to deal with it.

My comments were more for the future then to knock you or deride, apologies if it came out that way.


It's very likely. Pretty sure there will be whitnesses too. Literally no memory after waiting at the first set of lights. Totally on autopilot, then bang and I was sitting there looking at macdonalds, covered in glass 180 degrees out from where I'd been heading with stars in my vision thinking wtf just happened and how did I get here.
I'll update this thread as soon as I hear back from them with any charges of offers.

In the meantime I did a prospective quote on gocompare assuming a 30 grand claim on my insurance (which should way exceed the actual claim) and 9 points on my licence with CD30 code and my old SP30 and it was £600 fully comp in my unmodified replacement C class (the smashed one was fairly heavily modified- all declared ofcourse). Surprisingly not so bad. It was 350 fully comp to insure last week with just the old SP30.

No worries man, I felt briefly under attack but then I'm a bit touchy at the moment. Thanks for the post, I had been thinking the same re the other drive not being awake either. Need to do a LOT of meditation to try and get some peace of mind back.

This post has been edited by surfer91919: Sun, 18 Nov 2018 - 20:23
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notmeatloaf
post Wed, 21 Nov 2018 - 00:58
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All you should be worried about is that no-one was injured, both because of the human and financial cost.

Other than that wait to see what comes through. Often it is left to insurance companies if it is a case of mopping up repair bills.


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