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SJP Notice. I did reply with driver identification., Threads merged
Sussexgirl
post Mon, 24 Sep 2018 - 11:32
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Hi all,

On 30th Jan my car was caught on a camera doing 37mph in a 30.
Letter regarding this was sent on 5th Feb.
I sent the driver details back asap.
(I was pregnant at the time and just found out my "partner" was having an affair. We had gone for a drive (he was driving) to talk rather than being stuck in the house. He even asked me to take the offence and do the speeding course for him as I had more free time. Obviously I said no way and furiously filled the form out and posted it off)
Fast forward to 17th September and an SJP comes to me. For speeding and failing to give drivers details!
The police have enclosed the pictures and luckily you can see the driver is male.
What do I do with regards to the plea? Any advice would be great.
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post Mon, 24 Sep 2018 - 11:32
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Sussexgirl
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 11:38
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Yes it's the same case smile.gif
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 11:44
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Then you obviously hit REPORT on this thread and ask to be merged
One case, one thread.
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NewJudge
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 16:19
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QUOTE (Sussexgirl @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 09:59) *
I know that writing all that makes it look pretty self explanatory, but do I literally wait to be called in, go in and say what happened and see what they say. Should I write down my incoming and outgoings to hand over?

Should I speak to the court staff first?

The hearing you face tomorrow is purely an administrative one. Its purpose is to ensure everything is in place for the trial. You will be asked to state the basis of your NG plea (i.e. that you responded to the request as required). The only evidence you can provide (at the trial) is simply that. You have no issue about the notice being properly served on you. The decision for the Magistrates will be made simply on whether or not they find your evidence credible.

Be prepared for a bit of a wait tomorrow. In most courts defendants for Case Management hearings are all asked to attend at either 10am or 2pm. If you are taking your child with you tell them when you check in at reception (I expect they will notice!) and ask if they could arrange for the court to see you sooner rather than later. You cannot take your child into the courtroom so you will need somebody to tend to her whilst you are being dealt with (which should not take more than a few minutes).

A trial date will be set at the end of the hearing.
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Sussexgirl
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 17:26
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Thank you so much. I feel more at ease now.
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Sussexgirl
post Tue, 13 Nov 2018 - 18:16
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Was given my trial date today as I didn't want to change my not guilty plea.
The chap from the police said they did send me a reminder in March (????) Which will go against me I suspect.
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Sussexgirl
post Thu, 3 Jan 2019 - 15:00
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Hi there, I'm in court on Tuesday for this.
I was thinking that in the worst case scenario, it doesn't go in my favour. 6 points,a fine and court costs.
However I don't have 2 pennies to rub together, I have been served an eviction notice as I am behind in rent and I have just had a council tax liability order issued before Christmas.
Does anyone know what the court may issue or demand?
I did an affordability/expenses form when I had the 1st administrative hearing.

Many Thanks if anyone reads this old thread.
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The Rookie
post Thu, 3 Jan 2019 - 15:08
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If found guilty of the S172 the fine will be 150% of your weekly take home (after tax and NI only), if that is less than £140 then £140 will be used (fine £210) plus a surcharge of 10% of the fine (minimum of £30) and prosecution costs following a trial of £620, so somewhere over £830.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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NewJudge
post Thu, 3 Jan 2019 - 15:50
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The minimum assumed weekly income is actually £120pw, Rookie.

I think it unlikely that the prosecution will ask for £620 for what is essentially a “Section 9” trial (i.e. heard by way of statements only). The more likely figure is probably around £300. Of course the court always has the discretion to reduce the amount of costs awarded when considering the defendant’s means.
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Sussexgirl
post Thu, 3 Jan 2019 - 15:54
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Aghhh ok, will they take weekly amounts or do I have to pay it there and then?

Also should I have written a statement?
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The Rookie
post Thu, 3 Jan 2019 - 16:02
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You can ask for time to pay in instalments.

Thanks for the correction NJ.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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cp8759
post Thu, 3 Jan 2019 - 18:06
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Thu, 3 Jan 2019 - 15:50) *
Of course the court always has the discretion to reduce the amount of costs awarded when considering the defendant’s means.

+1, I've seen them reduce costs from over £1k to £150 on the basis of the limited means of the defendant, as they felt it would be unjust to award the full costs to the prosecution. If you have a liability order and are facing eviction, that won't give you a free pass but at the same time it's something they will take into account.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Sussexgirl
post Thu, 3 Jan 2019 - 19:20
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Thank you everyone smile.gif
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Sussexgirl
post Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 12:09
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Hi all, I had my court hearing today and I was found not guilty on both accounts.
Thanks again for your support and wise words
X
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Redivi
post Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 12:13
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Excellent news
Well done

Did the magistrates make any comments ?
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Sussexgirl
post Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 17:44
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After the adjourned he said it's down to my story against the prosecution as there wasn't really evidence on either side and whether or not we believe you (dramatic pause) and we so believe you and find you not guilty.
I think I represented myself ok, mainly because of you guys, but also thank fully the prosecution was not prepared at all, he sort of bumbled about and he produced "evidence" of the reminder letter that I didn't ever receive. This was listed as evidence piece 3. I however only received evidence 1 & 2 when I received the SJP, when I questioned as to how he had extra evidence that I was unaware of he said oh may be I didn't get it then?!
Magistrate asked if I have problems with our post ever and I said yes I do, post for number 22 of another road and we often get our neighbours post, plus 2 eBay items that haven't arrived in last 6 months.
He also confirmed that I had no reason at all to protect the driver and I said absolutely not, and as bad as it may sound, I got some alight pleasure out of it!
I explained what part of the form I filled in and sent off.
That I only sent it by standard post as I didn't have any money at all for recorded delivery.
I usually take photos of any forms and letters that I send but this time I just didn't think, as I had other pressing matters financially and worry about housing.

He said at the end, just make sure you always keep up your habit of taking photos of everything should anything like this happen again
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Logician
post Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 19:05
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The prosecution have to prove their case beyond reasonable doubt and obviously failed to do so, a good result. It sounds as though you presented your case very well, pointing out salient points such as your lack of any motivation to not send the form, and the failure to send you evidence they intended to rely on. Perhaps a new career beckons in due course, when your youngest starts school? Well done!


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Sussexgirl
post Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 08:07
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I would love that!
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The Rookie
post Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 09:34
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QUOTE (Logician @ Tue, 8 Jan 2019 - 19:05) *
The prosecution have to prove their case beyond reasonable doubt and obviously failed to do so

It's not clear to me whether they failed to prove their case or the bench accepted that it wasn't reasonably practicable for the OP to know the reply wasn't received, being unable to evidence a reminder wouldn't strictly hurt their case (offence would already have been committed) but would have helped the statutory defence.

Or maybe the Bench took an approach of what would actually best serve 'justice' rather than the letter of the statute.

Well done none the less.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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Redivi
post Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 10:03
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As a result of an item of post going missing, motorists such as this OP are always prosecuted

A guilty verdict has expensive and long-lasting consequences and the outcome of the prosecution usually depends entirely on whether the court believes that the reply was sent
Some threads have suggested that the burden of proof on the prosecution is a lot lower than "beyond reasonable doubt"

It therefore surprises me that the forms don't include a warning in big red letters to take a copy and ask the Post Office for a certificate of sending instead of, as in this case, writing a furious reply and putting it in a letter box
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jfollows
post Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 10:22
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Wed, 9 Jan 2019 - 10:03) *
It therefore surprises me that the forms don't include a warning in big red letters to take a copy and ask the Post Office for a certificate of sending instead of, as in this case, writing a furious reply and putting it in a letter box

The NIP I received from Cheshire Constabulary in 2013 stated:

You are advised to obtain a certificate of posting when returning the information required.

which is better than nothing. (And it was in bold font)

So some do better than others, the usual story!
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