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Council PCN - Isle Of Dogs again
John Bravo
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 14:55
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Hi again Gentlemen,
I have a new gift from my local council



Prior to this I have done an informal challenge indicating that contravention did not occur, but maybe some rules have changed since my last ticket for the same contravention was ruled in my favour at the tribunal.

Best regards
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post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 14:55
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stamfordman
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 15:03
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Let's have google street view

Looks like it's not a vehicle crossing but for bins, which they seem to concede. But bins aren't vehicles.

We advise that this is not a contravention, but not sure we've seen an adverse adjudication on this.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 15:03
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cp8759
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 15:20
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 15:03) *
We advise that this is not a contravention, but not sure we've seen an adverse adjudication on this.

We've had some where it was ruled that parking in front of a bin crossing is not a contravention. We should definitely see the Google Street View location.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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John Bravo
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 16:22
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Hi again,
Please see the location in SV.
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5000965,-0....6384!8i8192
You can actually see my car parked there as well.

This lowered kerb is only on one side so no crossing.
Best regards
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stamfordman
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 16:59
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Silly council.

What time was the PCN? The single yellow presumably is in a CPZ Mon-Fri 8.30 to 5.30 and would protect the bin collection time, although collection can be before 8.30 am - in which case they have the simple solution of double yellows.

Presuming this is a code 27 I wouldn't hesitate to await the NTO.

And to cap it all the part of the reg they cite is, as they say, an exception for rubbish trucks - but that's not for a DK that's there for collecting rubbish... a DK can only be enforced for the three reasons in the legislation and I see no collecting rubbish - so their reply is rubbish.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/section/86

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 17:21
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 17:43
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I'd be looking for costs on this one if they don't drop it at NTO


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John Bravo
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 18:06
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 17:59) *
Silly council.

What time was the PCN? The single yellow presumably is in a CPZ Mon-Fri 8.30 to 5.30 and would protect the bin collection time, although collection can be before 8.30 am - in which case they have the simple solution of double yellows.

Presuming this is a code 27 I wouldn't hesitate to await the NTO.

And to cap it all the part of the reg they cite is, as they say, an exception for rubbish trucks - but that's not for a DK that's there for collecting rubbish... a DK can only be enforced for the three reasons in the legislation and I see no collecting rubbish - so their reply is rubbish.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/18/section/86


This was on Sunday, 8:37am
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cp8759
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 18:32
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Well the council are idiots, they should put double yellow lines with a loading restriction.I agree if they don't drop it, costs should be sought at the tribunal.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Mad Mick V
post Thu, 8 Nov 2018 - 19:09
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I can see the Council's view if we are talking about the huge wheelie bins (1000 litres +) which have to be manhandled across the footway, rubbish having been deposited by a number of occupiers.

Surely they can manage this under the environmental legislation just as cars blocking the refuse truck can be ticketed for obstruction.

Under the TMA however they are on shaky ground especially since the writer of that letter is making it up as they go along.

Their case collapses if there are no "collections" on a Sunday--a clear case of Wednesbury Unreasonableness.

Mick
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John Bravo
post Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 13:35
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There is a big wheelie bin hidden behind the door next to the entrance, but the collection is not happening Sunday but Tuesday.
Best regards
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cp8759
post Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 13:52
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QUOTE (John Bravo @ Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 13:35) *
There is a big wheelie bin hidden behind the door next to the entrance, but the collection is not happening Sunday but Tuesday.
Best regards

The day of the collection is irrelevant, there is no law against parking in this way even if it's a collection day. Might seem odd, but if blocking a dropped kerb for bins is to become illegal Parliament would need to change the law first.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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John Bravo
post Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 17:29
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 14:52) *
QUOTE (John Bravo @ Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 13:35) *
There is a big wheelie bin hidden behind the door next to the entrance, but the collection is not happening Sunday but Tuesday.
Best regards

The day of the collection is irrelevant, there is no law against parking in this way even if it's a collection day. Might seem odd, but if blocking a dropped kerb for bins is to become illegal Parliament would need to change the law first.

I agree
What do you mean by "seeking costs at the tribunal"?
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cp8759
post Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 17:49
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QUOTE (John Bravo @ Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 17:29) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 14:52) *
QUOTE (John Bravo @ Fri, 9 Nov 2018 - 13:35) *
There is a big wheelie bin hidden behind the door next to the entrance, but the collection is not happening Sunday but Tuesday.
Best regards

The day of the collection is irrelevant, there is no law against parking in this way even if it's a collection day. Might seem odd, but if blocking a dropped kerb for bins is to become illegal Parliament would need to change the law first.

I agree
What do you mean by "seeking costs at the tribunal"?

If the council pursue this it would be wholly unreasonable for them to do so, you can therefore ask the tribunal to make an order for costs against the council, normally for this sort of case the tribunal allows four hours in time spent researching the law and drafting your submissions, the statutory rate is £19 per hour, so you could ask that the council be ordered to pay you £72.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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John Bravo
post Wed, 26 Dec 2018 - 12:22
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Good afternoon Gentlemen,
I have the same PCN from Tower Hamlets.
I have done an informal representation already but they have rejected the grounds with the following justification.


I am going to challenge this again (formal post NTO representations) using the following:
QUOTE
A. The alleged Contravention did not occur
F. There has been a procedural impropriety by the Enforcement Authority

The alleged contravention is parking adjacent to dropped foot-way, contrary to s86 of the Traffic Management Act.

I accept that the location lies within a special enforcement area
but the burden still lies with the authority to establish that the dropped foot-way meets the remaining criteria specified in the Act.
I challenged the purpose of the dropped foot-way in my pre-NTO challenge
but the authority ignored this and gave no reason in its response as regards the purpose of the dropped foot-way.
I maintain that it is there for the sole purpose of facilitating the emptying of refuse bins (paladin or similar wheeled containers) from the adjacent premises.
Given that there is no corresponding dropped foot-way on the other side of the road, its purpose cannot be to assist pedestrians to cross the road;
and given that there isn't a vehicle crossover at the location it cannot be for the purpose of allowing vehicles to cross the foot-way. Thee is no cycle infrastructure present.

The authority must examine the purpose of the dropped kerb by contacting colleagues in the highways department and not just presume,
as they have to date, that a lowered foot-way = 'dropped foot-way' as defined.


Please let me know if this is sufficient or if anything has changed.
Previously I have won at the tribunal - same location, same conditions. Old topic is here: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=123986
Best regards

This post has been edited by John Bravo: Wed, 26 Dec 2018 - 12:23
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 26 Dec 2018 - 12:28
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What happened with the other case ?


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John Bravo
post Wed, 26 Dec 2018 - 12:52
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the judge has allowed for the appeal based on my explanation in person.

I have noticed I linked to the wrong topic, but I cannot find it any more, it was over a year ago, perhaps it was archived.
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stamfordman
post Wed, 26 Dec 2018 - 12:59
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This is this case right?

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=123986

In which case needs to be merged.
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John Bravo
post Wed, 26 Dec 2018 - 13:01
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Yes you are right, I forgot I have posted one about it already.
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John Bravo
post Wed, 26 Dec 2018 - 20:49
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Their point about a bin truck accessing the place to unload wheelie bins is ludicrous, because it is hardly possible for a relatively small car to reverse in there - I have seen some people doing that but rarely as you risk scratching your car over walls that are on both sides and you kind of block the entrance as well.
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cp8759
post Fri, 28 Dec 2018 - 16:08
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I would challenge this further and if they reject it again I would seek costs at the tribunal. They cannot seriously believe a refuse bin could reverse into that gap (turning circle?) but even if it did, it clearly wouldn't be able to "leave the carriageway across the footway". I suspect they know the law doesn't prohibit parking in this manner and they're frustrated there's nothing they can do about it, so they're trying it on. At this point just wait for the Notice to Owner.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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