New PCN for Motoring violation, Another 50JL with address issues |
New PCN for Motoring violation, Another 50JL with address issues |
Thu, 21 Mar 2019 - 15:21
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 130 Joined: 23 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,589 |
Hi Guys,
Unfortunately, a new motoring violation, but this time received the PCN (DON: 19.03.19) after initial issue to Lex Autolease around 15.01.19. One thing to Note Address Line1 was a bit inaccurate. I have left the number in and blanked out the rest on the images FYI. The format as sent was: 4 4 <STREET NAME> However, should be: 4 <HOUSE NAME> <STREET NAME> Would the inaccuracy open up a chance for an easy technical appeal with LT? If you advise not, I may just pay within discounted period to focus on Appeal with LT (registered today) on my other post. PCN - PAGE1 PCN PAGE2 |
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Thu, 21 Mar 2019 - 15:21
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Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 11:41
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#41
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Member Group: Members Posts: 130 Joined: 23 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,589 |
Hi Guys,
Got my NOR from LBOE today. If you look at the reason doesn't make sense. Implies I made Reps on grounds of non-awareness of the restriction when I didn't!! As you guys recommended I made Reps on the grounds the 2nd PCN issued after NOA below on 28.06.19 (due to initial incorrect addressing) was illegal. So don't get their argument at all. 13/08/2019 16:41 Off Hold Compensate 13/08/2019 16:41 Representation submitted Under review 13/08/2019 16:41 Rejected Representation - Discount Period Reset 07/06/2019 01:38 On Hold :Formal Representation Received 29/05/2019 03:00 PCN Issued 28/05/2019 15:21 Representation Accepted Anyway, please review the NOR below for any technical impropriety therein. Otherwise happy to progress to LT on same grounds with your help and advice. If you think LBOE's NOR was wholly unreasonable then I would like to know if I have strong grounds to ask for costs for dragging this out unnecessarily too? Especially, as it appears LBOE have chosen to conveniently miss the point of REPS made on 07.06.19. They are definitely getting their wires crossed to refer to the previous PCN they cancelled before my LT date went ahead. Absolute muppets!! NOR1 NOR2 NOR3 NOR4 NOR5 NOR6 NOR7 Thanks in advance. |
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Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 11:45
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#42
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,656 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Can't see page one of the NoR also to make things a bit easier post a copy of your representations in the same post as page 1 and 2 of the NoR
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 16:45
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#43
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Can't see page one of the NoR also to make things a bit easier post a copy of your representations in the same post as page 1 and 2 of the NoR +1, show us exactly what you sent them, and use imgur.com or imgbb.com to host the pictures. Tinypic is crap and half the time it won't load at all. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 20:14
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#44
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Member Group: Members Posts: 130 Joined: 23 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,589 |
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Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 21:09
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#45
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Well they've completely ignored your main representation and have chosen to drone on and on about largely irrelevant matters. Seems a no brainer to appeal, in the end I doubt the council will contest.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 21 Aug 2019 - 09:55
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#46
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Member Group: Members Posts: 130 Joined: 23 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,589 |
So, I presume my appeal should be based on exactly the same worded grounds as used for Reps as previously posted?
I also, want to put forward a case for costs on the grounds the disputed decision was wholly unreasonable. I think it's wrong that LBOE's NOR has chosen to totally disregard my legal grounds for Reps forcing me to go to appeal if you guys think it's worth a shot too? Thanks. |
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Wed, 21 Aug 2019 - 13:26
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#47
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Generally an appeal will be worded differently to a representation, as it's addressed to the tribunal rather than the council, and also the tribunal has less powers than the council. But the gist of the appeal is the same.
For now I'd just register the appeal with the tribunal and write "detailed grounds to follow" in the reasons box, as I said I think there's a fair chance the council won't contest. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Fri, 23 Aug 2019 - 12:37
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#48
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Member Group: Members Posts: 130 Joined: 23 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,589 |
Generally an appeal will be worded differently to a representation, as it's addressed to the tribunal rather than the council, and also the tribunal has less powers than the council. But the gist of the appeal is the same. For now I'd just register the appeal with the tribunal and write "detailed grounds to follow" in the reasons box, as I said I think there's a fair chance the council won't contest. OK I will follow your advice to submit my appeal on that basis. Thanks. |
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Fri, 23 Aug 2019 - 13:31
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#49
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Member Group: Members Posts: 130 Joined: 23 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,589 |
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Sun, 15 Sep 2019 - 23:19
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#50
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Member Group: Members Posts: 130 Joined: 23 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,589 |
Hi Guys,
Just got a heavy, A4 brown envelope today full of case evidence that LBOE will be putting forward to contest on 25.09.19. Mystifying not least because their NOR totally ignores my grounds of REPS of the impropriety to issue a 2nd PCN after issuing NOA for first PCN. REPS to reissued PCN GROUNDS: Penalty exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case REASON: The authority have no power to issue the PCN having already accepted representations against the penalty, my representations and your Notice of Acceptance dated 15.04.19 and 28.05.19 (see below) respectively refer. The authority appear to be under the misconception that simply because they have rectified the procedural error in my first PCN they may issue a second. I don't know where this process would end if, say, I identified further improprieties: a third or fourth bite at the cherry perhaps? The PCN is void, para. 2 of Schedule 1 to the London Local Authorities Act refers, specifically para. 2(2) because I am not 'another person'. In order to pre-empt any reliance by the authority upon section 6 of the Act - the power to serve a 'fresh notice'- this remains subject to overriding condition in Schedule 1 i.e. only on 'another person'. NB. Your PCN log shows that you accepted my representations on 28.05.19, I have therefore used this date as the date of your - yet to be received - NOA. Many thanks in anticipation of the cancellation of this unlawfully served PCN. Please see page1 of some 50+ pages case evidence and be grateful to know what appeal evidence we should submit in defence before attending the hearing in due course? random percentage generator |
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Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 09:31
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#51
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
There should be a "case summary" in the council's evidence pack, please post it up.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Tue, 17 Sep 2019 - 01:51
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#52
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Member Group: Members Posts: 130 Joined: 23 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,589 |
The Authorised Parking Appeals Officer definitely appears to be confused in the Case Summary.
In Case Summary Pg2:Paras:6/7 below the Officer incorrectly states my Reps posted on 04.06.19. I refer to a previous cancelled PCN (EA38592421). Events log below show first formal Reps were made on 15.04.19 regarding incorrectly addressed PCN issued on 19.03.19. To which LBOE sent NOA on 28.05.19. LBOE issued new correctly addressed PCN on 29.05.19 which subsequent Reps LBOE received on 07.06.19 challenged as Invalid. NOR was issued on 14.08.19. LBOE On-line Key Events Log Details Please see the 3 Page Case Summary details from LBOE below as requested: Case Summary Page1 upload Case Summary Page2 Case Summary Page3 Case Summary Pg2: Para6 stated that I have not provided further evidence so hopefully by doing so we can halt proceedings with the appropriate response. If LBOE decide to contest I want to claim for costs on the grounds the disputed decision was 'wholly unreasonable' as it disregarded the actual reason for Reps on 07.06.19. Thanks in advance. |
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Tue, 17 Sep 2019 - 19:19
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#53
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,007 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
You must make sure you supply to the tribunal:
1) A copy of the original PCN dated 19 March 2) A copy of the representations you made against that PCN 3) A copy of the PCN dated 29 May I would send something along these lines: --------- As the respondent's case history demonstrates, a PCN was issued in my name on 19 March 2019, that PCN was duly received and I made a formal representation against it. The council's case history confirms the representations were received within the 28 day period, on 15 April 2019. The representations were accepted by the council on 28 May 2019 and that should have been the end of the matter. The new PCN which is in issue in this appeal was issued on 29 May 2019 but the council has not explained where it derived the statutory authority to serve the second PCN. Firstly the PCN dated 29 May 2019 has been served way outside of the 28 day statutory time limit, and none of the applicable exceptions to that rule appears to be engaged. i submit that where an enforcement authority relies on a statutory exception to the 28 day time limit is engaged, it is up to the enforcement authority to specify which exemption it relies on and also to provide evidence supporting its position. In any case, even ignoring the issue of time limit, the enforcement authority needs to demonstrate that is has a statutory power to serve the PCN dated 29 May 2019. The council asserts that the previous PCN was cancelled due to a technical error, this is not an uncommon occurrence. However where a council recognises it has made an error and cancels a PCN, it does not have a power to rectify the mistake by issuing a new PCN. The council's choice is to defend the technical error at the tribunal under the doctrine of substantial compliance, or it can cancel the PCN. It is not open to the council to cancel the defective PCN and then issue another PCN for the same contravention in a misguided attempt to resurrect proceedings. If this were permissible, every time there is an error in the enforcement process the council would be able to rectify its mistake by simply cancelling the PCN and starting afresh by issuing a new PCN for the same contravention, which is exactly what has been attempted in this instance. The council's assertion that the "closed case" has nothing to do with the present PCN is unsustainable in light of the fact that both PCNs relate to the same contravention. The assertions around the "Notice of Rejection being archived" are hard to reconcile with the fact that there would have been a Notice of Acceptance for the original PCN, and it is presumably within the power of the council to retrieve data that has been archived. The council must reasonably know that it has no power to issue a second PCN in an attempt to rectify an error in the enforcement process, that makes both the decision to reject my representations and the decision to contest this appeal wholly unreasonable. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 18 Sep 2019 - 17:50
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#54
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Member Group: Members Posts: 130 Joined: 23 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,589 |
Thanks cp8759 and everyone who contributed thus far to support.
I have uploaded final evidence as listed below so let's see if LBOE go ahead to contest or not. I'm ready to defend either way! state wide auto |
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Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 20:46
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#55
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Member Group: Members Posts: 130 Joined: 23 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,589 |
Hi Guys,
Now I've posted up my final submissions and evidence prior to Tribunal next week I have a question. I've recently had surgery and my health is a bit volatile as still in recovery. I'm worried I'll be too unwell to attend next week as my condition varies a lot day by day. I had opted to contest in person, but with the procedural error by LBOE case put forward is it essential I attend in person? With the risk of being too unwell to attend in person on the day can I now contact LT to leave it to be decided and notified of the decision by post? Be grateful for your advice to know if on this occasion I can leave matters to be adjudicated on without attending in person? Thanks. |
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Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 22:02
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#56
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,656 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Hi Guys, Now I've posted up my final submissions and evidence prior to Tribunal next week I have a question. I've recently had surgery and my health is a bit volatile as still in recovery. I'm worried I'll be too unwell to attend next week as my condition varies a lot day by day. I had opted to contest in person, but with the procedural error by LBOE case put forward is it essential I attend in person? With the risk of being too unwell to attend in person on the day can I now contact LT to leave it to be decided and notified of the decision by post? Be grateful for your advice to know if on this occasion I can leave matters to be adjudicated on without attending in person? Thanks. You can inform them and ask that they decide on the papers or you can ask for an adjournment -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Fri, 20 Sep 2019 - 00:31
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#57
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Member Group: Members Posts: 130 Joined: 23 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,589 |
Hi Guys, Now I've posted up my final submissions and evidence prior to Tribunal next week I have a question. I've recently had surgery and my health is a bit volatile as still in recovery. I'm worried I'll be too unwell to attend next week as my condition varies a lot day by day. I had opted to contest in person, but with the procedural error by LBOE case put forward is it essential I attend in person? With the risk of being too unwell to attend in person on the day can I now contact LT to leave it to be decided and notified of the decision by post? Be grateful for your advice to know if on this occasion I can leave matters to be adjudicated on without attending in person? Thanks. You can inform them and ask that they decide on the papers or you can ask for an adjournment QUOTE Prefer not to adjourn as gone on long enough. Okay will talk to LT helpline tomorrow QUOTE Want to minimise the risk of falling at the last hurdle, but obviously realise there is no guarantee
If low risk after all the effort everyone's put in I may well ask for a postal decision instead of attending in person[q This post has been edited by Dexx99: Fri, 20 Sep 2019 - 00:32 |
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Thu, 26 Sep 2019 - 01:53
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#58
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Member Group: Members Posts: 130 Joined: 23 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,589 |
Hi Guys, Please see the turn of events after leaving my appeal of 25.09.19 to a be decided in my absence due to on-going recovery from surgery.
The decision was the case was could not be fully decided so adjourned for further submisions by LBOE. Adjournment Appeal Response Letter P/1 Adjournment Appeal Response Letter P/2 If I interpret the Adjudicators decision correctly seems like LBOE didn't make their position clear. I seem to have fallen foul of the fact the Adjudicator wasn't impressed that I had submitted my final evidence too near to the appeal. Is there a timeline to submit evidence prior to tribunal as I wasn't aware of that? In any case, it was only because of illness I submitted final evidence when I did. Shame, if I could've won if it wasn't for that. However, now LBOE have a 2nd bite at the cherry what do you think their chances are of explaining their position clearly to satisfy the adjudicator? |
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Thu, 26 Sep 2019 - 06:47
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#59
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
OP---doesn't matter about the lateness of your appeal---the case is still in play.
I would be very surprised if the Council responded so you would win by default in those circumstances. Mick |
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Thu, 26 Sep 2019 - 10:04
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#60
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,656 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
OP---doesn't matter about the lateness of your appeal---the case is still in play. I would be very surprised if the Council responded so you would win by default in those circumstances. Mick I agree with Mick as to the likely outcome, and it is something we need to be aware of when holding back on submitting evidence. we must remember that the OP is the appellant and the legal convention requires that the appellant put there case so that the defendant my defend it -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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