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Caught doing 69 in a 40
hayley101
post Sat, 25 May 2013 - 10:08
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First off I'd like to say I know I have been stupid, and I accept that. The only defence I have is that I was in a rush for an appointment so I wouldn't normally drive like that and the road I was on, well its seems ridiculous that its a 40. It's basically like a dual carriage way with 2 lanes on both sides (although probably not technically a dual carriage way due to no barriers in between). It was 11am and there was me and one other car on the whole stretch of road. There was a police van at the top with a camera flashing and I knew straight away I was screwed.

I have received an NIP from Northumbria Police. The letter they have sent me is from the 'Fixed Penalty Unit' and the way the letter is worded, it sounds like I could avoid court. They have at this stage simply asked for me to send off to say who the driver was at this stage. However there is no mention of any summons. Maybe I am grasping at straws. My question is this, given the time of day and the type of road, is there a chance in hell I could get the £60 3 points? Or even get a higher fine/points but avoid court? Are things like type of road factors that are taken into consideration? Can it vary from one Policing region to another? Or is it a case of, as I have read on certain sites, no matter what the area, in England they are obligated to let the courts deal with it at a certain speed? (ie at 40mph, 66mph I believe is the level I read you get summons).

I should add I was caught my a camera last year doing 36 in a 30 so if it comes down to it I would probably rather have a months ban than deal with having to drive for 2 years with 9 points on my license and face a potential 6 month ban!

Thanks for any advice in advance
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post Sat, 25 May 2013 - 10:08
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Jlc
post Sat, 25 May 2013 - 10:15
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That speed will almost certainly be a court summons. The threshold for a summons is 66mph in a 40 as you note. If they do offer a fixed penalty then you would be advised to accept it but it's unlikely.

Try this calc:



You get a 33% discount for a guilty plea but there are costs of around £80 and a victim's surcharge of 10% of the fine. (Min £20)

Remember to return the s172 (name the driver) as failure to do this is 6 points and a large fine.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Sat, 25 May 2013 - 10:16


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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hayley101
post Sat, 25 May 2013 - 10:18
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 25 May 2013 - 11:15) *
That speed will almost certainly be a court summons. The threshold for a summons is 66mph in a 40.

Try this calc:



You get a 33% discount for a guilty plea but there are costs of around £80 and a victim's surcharge of 10% of the fine. (Min £20)


Thanks for your help. I was expecting that sad.gif

Is it a guaranteed though..? Do the Police in my area have to send me to court as its over 66mph, or is it just that its likely? Because anyone in my area who knew the road I was caught on, would know it was extremely likely even at that speed that I was endangering anyone. Pedestrians for example don't even have a footpath as like I mentioned previously, its more like a carriageway.

This post has been edited by hayley101: Sat, 25 May 2013 - 10:19
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Jlc
post Sat, 25 May 2013 - 10:19
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QUOTE (hayley101 @ Sat, 25 May 2013 - 11:08) *
Are things like type of road factors that are taken into consideration?
Yes, but usually to increase the sentence, e.g. bad weather, location.

QUOTE (hayley101 @ Sat, 25 May 2013 - 11:08) *
I should add I was caught my a camera last year doing 36 in a 30 so if it comes down to it I would probably rather have a months ban than deal with having to drive for 2 years with 9 points on my license and face a potential 6 month ban!

How many points do you have right now? 6 points is possible from this.

QUOTE (hayley101 @ Sat, 25 May 2013 - 11:18) *
It is a guaranteed though..as it the Police in my area have to send me to court as its over 66mph, or is it just that its likely? Because anyone in my area who knew the road I was caught on, would know it was extremely likely even at that speed that I was endangering anyone. Pedestrians for example don't even have a footpath as like I mentioned previously, its more like a carriageway.

Not guaranteed but it would be extremely unusual to offer a fixed penalty.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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hayley101
post Sat, 25 May 2013 - 10:20
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 25 May 2013 - 11:19) *
QUOTE (hayley101 @ Sat, 25 May 2013 - 11:08) *
Are things like type of road factors that are taken into consideration?
Yes, but usually to increase the sentence, e.g. bad weather, location.

QUOTE (hayley101 @ Sat, 25 May 2013 - 11:08) *
I should add I was caught my a camera last year doing 36 in a 30 so if it comes down to it I would probably rather have a months ban than deal with having to drive for 2 years with 9 points on my license and face a potential 6 month ban!

How many points do you have right now? 6 points is possible from this.

QUOTE (hayley101 @ Sat, 25 May 2013 - 11:18) *
It is a guaranteed though..as it the Police in my area have to send me to court as its over 66mph, or is it just that its likely? Because anyone in my area who knew the road I was caught on, would know it was extremely likely even at that speed that I was endangering anyone. Pedestrians for example don't even have a footpath as like I mentioned previously, its more like a carriageway.

Not guaranteed but it would be extremely unusual to offer a fixed penalty.


I currently have 3 points on my license, been driving just short of 6 years.
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Jlc
post Sat, 25 May 2013 - 10:20
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Did the NIP arrive within 14 days? (If you are the registered keeper)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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hayley101
post Sat, 25 May 2013 - 10:22
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 25 May 2013 - 11:20) *
Did the NIP arrive within 14 days? (If you are the registered keeper)


Yes it arrived 9 days later. Thanks for your advice I am keeping everything crossed for £60 3 points, although I know it is probably wishful thinking!
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Jlc
post Sat, 25 May 2013 - 10:24
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To be honest you probably won't hear anything at all after nominating the driver. The summons will usually arrive many months later (they have 6 months to lay particulars with the court).

You can attempt a guilty plea by post but they may adjourn and request your presence if they are considering a ban.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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hayley101
post Sat, 25 May 2013 - 10:30
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 25 May 2013 - 11:24) *
To be honest you probably won't hear anything at all after nominating the driver. The summons will usually arrive many months later (they have 6 months to lay particulars with the court).

You can attempt a guilty plea by post but they may adjourn and request your presence if they are considering a ban.


That doesn't sound good. Do they normally just offer the £60 3 points with the first letter they send to you (along with asking who they driver is) if they are going to offer Fixed Penalty?
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Jlc
post Sat, 25 May 2013 - 10:34
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Not normally - just nominate the driver first. (There are some forces that do offer the fixed penalty on the first letter, e.g. Avon)

They might write back after receiving your nomination to say that it can't be handled by a fixed penalty and to expect a summons. Usually, the summons just arrives many months later just when you think they've 'forgotten' about it. sad.gif


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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hayley101
post Sat, 25 May 2013 - 10:37
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 25 May 2013 - 11:34) *
Not normally - just nominate the driver first. (There are some forces that do offer the fixed penalty on the first letter, e.g. Avon)

They might write back after receiving your nomination to say that it can't be handled by a fixed penalty and to expect a summons. Usually, the summons just arrives many months later just when you think they've 'forgotten' about it. sad.gif


Maybe Northumbria Police will be kind (I wish). Thanks for all your help. I will post later down the line how I've got on.
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Jlc
post Sat, 25 May 2013 - 10:47
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Fingers crossed but at least you're prepared for the worst...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Pete P
post Sat, 25 May 2013 - 20:55
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QUOTE (hayley101 @ Sat, 25 May 2013 - 11:08) *
It's basically like a dual carriage way with 2 lanes on both sides (although probably not technically a dual carriage way due to no barriers in between).


Isn't that the actual definition of a single carriageway?


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QUOTE
I discussed about it with solicitor and he said nothing to worry maximum £100 fine. On 30th July 2014 it was our Eid Day and because of Solicitor views
I didn't appear into the court and court issued me 6points on driving licence and total £745 fine. I paid and got points on licence.

PPC 0 - 6 Me
Council 3 - 2 Me
bastards!
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Logician
post Sat, 25 May 2013 - 21:39
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A dual carriageway is one which has the two carriageways separated by a central reservation, the presence or absence of a barrier such as Armco is not relevant. However, if it has a 40mph speed limit as a result of a Traffic Regulation Order, then that is the limit regardless of what sort of road it is. A bench familiar with the road might be marginally more lenient, on the other hand they might be concerned at the prevalence of speeding there, there is no way of knowing.


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Pete P
post Sun, 26 May 2013 - 12:32
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Yes I was just pointing out he contradicts himself in that post. A dual carriageway is defined as a road with one or more lanes in opposite directions which are physically separated from each other (eg a barrier). A single carriageway is the same but with no physical separation.

A dual carriageway with no barrier in between is surely just a single carriageway?


--------------------
QUOTE
I discussed about it with solicitor and he said nothing to worry maximum £100 fine. On 30th July 2014 it was our Eid Day and because of Solicitor views
I didn't appear into the court and court issued me 6points on driving licence and total £745 fine. I paid and got points on licence.

PPC 0 - 6 Me
Council 3 - 2 Me
bastards!
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IanJohnsonWS14
post Sun, 26 May 2013 - 18:14
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QUOTE (Pete P @ Sun, 26 May 2013 - 13:32) *
Yes I was just pointing out he contradicts himself in that post. A dual carriageway is defined as a road with one or more lanes in opposite directions which are physically separated from each other (eg a barrier). A single carriageway is the same but with no physical separation.

A dual carriageway with no barrier in between is surely just a single carriageway?


Armco is not necessary, a single carriageway has no central reservation, a dual carriageway has. The central reservation may be have armco, be kerbs and concrete or just grass. A painted line is not sufficient to make it a dual carriageway.


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Pete P
post Mon, 27 May 2013 - 20:18
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Yes that is exactly what I am saying. The lanes must be PHYSICALLY separated. I didn't say it had to be a barrier. A painted white line would just make it a single carriageway. I don't know why that is so hard to understand.


--------------------
QUOTE
I discussed about it with solicitor and he said nothing to worry maximum £100 fine. On 30th July 2014 it was our Eid Day and because of Solicitor views
I didn't appear into the court and court issued me 6points on driving licence and total £745 fine. I paid and got points on licence.

PPC 0 - 6 Me
Council 3 - 2 Me
bastards!
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Logician
post Mon, 27 May 2013 - 22:00
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QUOTE (Pete P @ Mon, 27 May 2013 - 21:18) *
Yes that is exactly what I am saying. The lanes must be PHYSICALLY separated. I didn't say it had to be a barrier. A painted white line would just make it a single carriageway. I don't know why that is so hard to understand.


It is not hard to understand but you confused the issue with your comment "A dual carriageway with no barrier in between is surely just a single carriageway?" because what defines a dual carriageway is a central reservation according to the RTRA 1984. Your question could be taken to imply that if there is a central reservation but no barrier then the road is a single carriageway. You may be assuming that a central reservation is a barrier, while others take it that barrier means something higher, such as Armco.


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southpaw82
post Mon, 27 May 2013 - 23:30
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And this is relevant because?


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Logician
post Mon, 27 May 2013 - 23:46
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Sorry, it isn't really.


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