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Armtrac Security Services!, Parking charge notice in Falmouth
Decado
post Sun, 17 Mar 2013 - 15:57
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Hi

Hope someone here can give me some advice. I have had a look through the topics and see the name of Armtrac coming up regularly.

I parked in a car park in Falmouth yesterday and put in £2.20 (for two hours) into the ticket machine, took the ticket and placed it on the dash board. Came back 1.5 hours later to find a Parking Charge Notice on the windscreen. We were puzzled as we had paid for two hours. However, looking at the ticket the fee is shown as £2 and the expiry time 30 minutes before we got back to the car. It would appear that the 20p was not accepted by the ticket machine or it is faulty.

Having done some research on KBT Cornwall Ltd trading as Armtrac Security Services it would appear that the best advice is to ignore them. is this still the case?

The ticket that has been issued is really poorly hand written and I can't work out which car park I was supposed to be in as it is unreadable.

Any advice gratefully accepted.

Regards

Paul
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post Sun, 17 Mar 2013 - 15:57
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Decado
post Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 14:37
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 15:14) *
QUOTE (Decado @ Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 14:30) *
Here is the offending sign with the reference to "fine" in the bottom right hand corner. The cut off is due to the original photographer and not me.

Bottom left corner? Definitely worth a complaint to BPA/DVLA - they are expressly not allowed to use penalty or fine.

So they actual sent their own evidence of the non-compliant sign???


They did!


QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 15:14) *
QUOTE (Decado @ Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 14:30) *
Here is the offending sign with the reference to "fine" in the bottom right hand corner. The cut off is due to the original photographer and not me.

Bottom left corner? Definitely worth a complaint to BPA/DVLA - they are expressly not allowed to use penalty or fine.

So they actual sent their own evidence of the non-compliant sign???


PS You are right - it is bottom left. Post now edited.

QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 15:10) *
So as well as sending a copy of that sign with the fine wording to the DVLA with a complaint email, you need to work on your POPLA challenge. Please read other threads and links already given, include all points already made in this thread, and show us what you have drafted in a few days please. Not juist a soft appeal, a challenge with lots of points like you will see in the links already given, and including a paragraph about the breach of the BPA Code by calling it a fine - which leads nicely onto another paragraph about the amount being an obvious penalty/punitive.

Does the attached POPLA form include a verification code for you to use online, seeing as the letter doesn't?


Thanks for that SchoolRunMum. I'll trawl through the other threads and links a draft a response. There seems to be a lot of other ammunition I can use beyond what I have already detailed.

The POPLA form (4 pages) contains a 10 digit verification code on the last page, the one where I have to fill in my details and reasons for my appeal.

I have now sent off a complaint to the DVLA. However, the jpeg I attached was too big to be sent. Zipping it didn't really help. I've used tinypic and pasted into the body of the text (the URL for email). Hope it works.

Can always try the lady referred to in someone else's post.
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Jlc
post Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 14:49
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As the ticket shows £2 paid (along with the explanation) I think they would be churlish to pursue this further... (Just playing a game of bluff at the moment)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Decado
post Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 14:52
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 15:49) *
As the ticket shows £2 paid (along with the explanation) I think they would be churlish to pursue this further... (Just playing a game of bluff at the moment)


In theory, they owe me money if they try the old breaching a contract thingie as £2 would buy approximately 1 hour 50 minutes. We left after 90 minutes so I am owed 20 minutes - approximately 37p :-)
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minotaur
post Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 15:38
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Another, but minor, point -

"The vehicle was of a class prohibited from using the car park."

So there must be other T & Cs not on display so (presumably) making any contract void.


--------------------
Remove Residents' Parking Scheme: Nottinghamshire County Council 0 - Me (and others) 1
Parking Tickets: Nottinghamshire County Council 0 - Me 3
Parking Tickets: Civil Enforcement Ltd. 0 - Me 1
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Jlc
post Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 16:14
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QUOTE (Decado @ Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 15:52) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 15:49) *
As the ticket shows £2 paid (along with the explanation) I think they would be churlish to pursue this further... (Just playing a game of bluff at the moment)


In theory, they owe me money if they try the old breaching a contract thingie as £2 would buy approximately 1 hour 50 minutes. We left after 90 minutes so I am owed 20 minutes - approximately 37p :-)

I'm sure the comprehensive contract stipulates that no refunds are allowed for 'under usage'. You must have remembered agreeing to that when you negotiated and signed the contact? tongue.gif


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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bama
post Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 17:01
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A copy of that letter should go to TS !

referring to the last part - should you lose at POPLA you will be required to pay £100.
Clearly abd materially false and misleading, a breach of CPUTR and the criminal part at that IMO

This post has been edited by bama: Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 17:02


--------------------
Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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Decado
post Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 17:08
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QUOTE (bama @ Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 18:01) *
A copy of that letter should go to TS !

referring to the last part - should you lose at POPLA you will be required to pay £100.
Clearly abd materially false and misleading, a breach of CPUTR and the criminal part at that IMO


I missed that! From what I have read on this forum the POPLA decision is not binding on me, just the PPC. Quite a threatening tone as well.

Are they truly stupid? They have already given me so much ammunition in their refusal of my "appeal".
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Decado
post Thu, 11 Apr 2013 - 08:16
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From what I have read on this forum (and apologies if I've misunderstood) should I be writing to the PPC to request:

- details of the contract they hold with the Maritime Museum, specifically the part that gives them the authority to collect money for Parking Charge Notices
- the basis for their claim - breach of contract, trespass, damages to property, losses
- details of the authority to collect fines as detailed on their sign

All of which I will need to formulate my POPLA appeal. Anything else I need to request?

Should I point out the pro rata aspect of the amount shown on the ticket and challenge that I had not bought sufficient time for the time parked (their faulty ticket machine not withstanding).

Any comments/thoughts welcome.
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Jlc
post Thu, 11 Apr 2013 - 08:30
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QUOTE (Decado @ Thu, 11 Apr 2013 - 09:16) *
Should I point out the pro rata aspect of the amount shown on the ticket and challenge that I had not bought sufficient time for the time parked (their faulty ticket machine not withstanding).

POPLA deal in absolutes - so if there's no offer of pro-rata'd time then none is allowed and the parking time was exceeded. They will not use common-sense and rule in your favour - nor will they consider mitigating factors.

The contract is a good one as they probably won't want to share it... Also the misrepresentation of authority (see section 14.2 here)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Decado
post Thu, 11 Apr 2013 - 08:38
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 11 Apr 2013 - 09:30) *
QUOTE (Decado @ Thu, 11 Apr 2013 - 09:16) *
Should I point out the pro rata aspect of the amount shown on the ticket and challenge that I had not bought sufficient time for the time parked (their faulty ticket machine not withstanding).

POPLA deal in absolutes - so if there's no offer of pro-rata'd time then none is allowed and the parking time was exceeded. They will not use common-sense and rule in your favour - nor will they consider mitigating factors.

The contract is a good one as they probably won't want to share it... Also the misrepresentation of authority (see section 14.2 here)


Thanks Jlc. Regarding the pro rata thing, I was referring to my letter to the PPC. However, from what you say, I can't use that for the POPLA appeal and, thinking further, the PPC will probably just ignore it anyway.

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SchoolRunMum
post Thu, 11 Apr 2013 - 12:04
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Just trying to show you sort of long challenge I think you should be drafting...here's one I wrote on MSE (as Coupon-mad) which is actually fairly short:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4506249

In that one I didn't even bother with the 'punitive/unfair...against various laws' stuff that you will find on the Parking Cowboys challenge template...not that I am saying you should copy directly from a template, and do be aware that the Parking Cowboys one isn't written for POPLA, it's written to give people ideas for a first challenge to a PPC.

I just want to show you the things to consider - POPLA only need to find in your favour on one point so be clear on what hurdles you are setting up for the PPC to fall at. You could show us your draft POPLA appeal here for comments if you like.
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Decado
post Fri, 12 Apr 2013 - 08:25
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QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Thu, 11 Apr 2013 - 13:04) *
Just trying to show you sort of long challenge I think you should be drafting...here's one I wrote on MSE (as Coupon-mad) which is actually fairly short:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4506249

In that one I didn't even bother with the 'punitive/unfair...against various laws' stuff that you will find on the Parking Cowboys challenge template...not that I am saying you should copy directly from a template, and do be aware that the Parking Cowboys one isn't written for POPLA, it's written to give people ideas for a first challenge to a PPC.

I just want to show you the things to consider - POPLA only need to find in your favour on one point so be clear on what hurdles you are setting up for the PPC to fall at. You could show us your draft POPLA appeal here for comments if you like.


Thanks again SRM. I have seen some of the posts in MSE that you did. Loads of fantastic information. I will be writing to Armtrac to ask for details of their contract with the Museum, details of their authority to issue fines (their signage has the word "fine" prominently displayed, which I understand is against Section 14.2 of the BPA CoP), and what they are going to base their "case" on - breach of contract, trespass or loss/damages.

I have also found the contact details of the people who run the Museum (and own the car park) and will be emailing to complain about this.
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Jlc
post Fri, 12 Apr 2013 - 08:40
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QUOTE (Decado @ Fri, 12 Apr 2013 - 09:25) *
their signage has the word "fine" prominently displayed, which I understand is against Section 14.2 of the BPA CoP

Yup, 14.2 in the latest version: (Misrepresentation of authority)

QUOTE
You must not use terms which imply that parking is being managed, controlled and enforced under statutory authority. This includes using terms such as ‘fine’, ‘penalty’ or ‘penalty charge notice’.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Decado
post Fri, 12 Apr 2013 - 16:17
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Re-sent details of the incorrect signage to the DVLA using the FOI@dvla.gov.uk via hotmail as the original may not have got through due to the large file size of the photo.

Also sent an email to Jonathan Griffin, Director, at the Maritime Museum. Polite but pointing out that they may want to avoid further embarrassment as they got last year - http://www.falmouthpacket.co.uk/news/cornw...r_park__fines_/ , etc.

Scarily enough, I'm quite enjoying this. The British thing of the little guy getting back at stupid bureaucracy.

If only I'd known of this forum when my partner got a fine from parking at the local Aldi.


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SchoolRunMum
post Sat, 13 Apr 2013 - 01:11
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It's FOI@dvla.gsi.gov.uk so re-send it.

And your partner DID NOT get a fine for parking at Aldi.

This post has been edited by SchoolRunMum: Sat, 13 Apr 2013 - 01:12
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Decado
post Sat, 13 Apr 2013 - 12:26
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QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Sat, 13 Apr 2013 - 02:11) *
It's FOI@dvla.gsi.gov.uk so re-send it.

And your partner DID NOT get a fine for parking at Aldi.


Thanks SchoolRunMum. It will be re-sent.

You are correct. She still thinks of it as a "fine" though.
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Decado
post Sun, 14 Apr 2013 - 15:53
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Below is a draft of the letter I intend to send to Armtrac so as to obtain the information I require to include in the POPLA. I would be grateful for any comments, additions, etc.

With reference to Parking Charge Notice XXXX

Thank you for your letter dated XXXX and received on XXXX which contains several factual errors.

I must admit to being surprised that you refer to my letter as an “appeal” as I do not recall making one.

However, you have decided to incorrectly interpret my letter as an “appeal” and take this further.

To ensure that I can correctly formulate my appeal to POPLA I require the following information from yourselves by XXXXX to allow me to respond to the POPLA appeal which is due on the XXXXX.

1. Your authority to issue a “fine”. In the photograph of the sign detailing the parking tariff that you sent me, there is a clear reference to a “fine” in the bottom left hand corner of the sign. It is my understanding that only statutory bodies are allowed to issue fines. If you have such authority please send the details to me. If not then you are in breach of the British Parking Association Code of Practice, Section 14.2. I believe that your company is a member of the British Parking Association.

2. The confirmation that you are landowner/landholder of the Maritime Car Park. If you are not the landowner/landholder or do not have a proprietary interest in the Car Park please send me a copy of the contract that you hold with the landowner/landholder that gives you clear authorisation from the landowner/landholder to manage and enforce parking and allows you to issue parking charge notices.

3. Please let me know on what grounds you are asking for payment:

• Breach of contract
• Loss or damages
• Trespass

If loss or damages please detail the genuine pre-estimate of the loss or actual damages suffered by your business or the landowner/landholder if you are not the landowner/ landholder.

If trespass please detail the damages caused by the alleged trespass to your business or the landowner/landholder if you are not the landowner/landholder.

I look forward to your response.
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hoohoo
post Sun, 14 Apr 2013 - 16:22
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It's fine to ask them for these things, but you don't need to wait for their reply.

POPLA cases have been won just by asking POPLA for those documents, without previously asking the PPC. The PPC then typically do not supply them, and POPLA rule in your favour.

If they do decide to supply them, then you will be copied in on them before the appeal date, and you then have a chance to scrutinise them and add further points to your appeal if you wish, up to the date the appeal is held.

To point 2. I would add something on the lines of '...and allows you to pursue unpaid parking charges in the county court.'
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Decado
post Mon, 15 Apr 2013 - 10:01
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QUOTE (hoohoo @ Sun, 14 Apr 2013 - 17:22) *
It's fine to ask them for these things, but you don't need to wait for their reply.

POPLA cases have been won just by asking POPLA for those documents, without previously asking the PPC. The PPC then typically do not supply them, and POPLA rule in your favour.

If they do decide to supply them, then you will be copied in on them before the appeal date, and you then have a chance to scrutinise them and add further points to your appeal if you wish, up to the date the appeal is held.

To point 2. I would add something on the lines of '...and allows you to pursue unpaid parking charges in the county court.'


Thanks but I'd rather not bring up the idea of "county court" just yet :-)

Let's see how the POPLA appeal goes. Seen something on another thread regarding getting the start of an appeal in early though.
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Decado
post Mon, 15 Apr 2013 - 17:17
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QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Sat, 13 Apr 2013 - 02:11) *
It's FOI@dvla.gsi.gov.uk so re-send it.

And your partner DID NOT get a fine for parking at Aldi.


DVLA has come back to me with:

Thank you for your email received on XXX. Your email reference number is XXXXX.



For further assistance, please contact:



British Parking Association



Telephone - 01444447300



I hope this helps.


I think there is an email address for BPA elsewhere on this forum so I'll dig that out and send the same to them.
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