Printable Version of Topic

Click here to view this topic in its original format

FightBack Forums _ Private Parking Tickets & Clamping _ Armtrac Security Services!

Posted by: Decado Sun, 17 Mar 2013 - 15:57
Post #798266

Hi

Hope someone here can give me some advice. I have had a look through the topics and see the name of Armtrac coming up regularly.

I parked in a car park in Falmouth yesterday and put in £2.20 (for two hours) into the ticket machine, took the ticket and placed it on the dash board. Came back 1.5 hours later to find a Parking Charge Notice on the windscreen. We were puzzled as we had paid for two hours. However, looking at the ticket the fee is shown as £2 and the expiry time 30 minutes before we got back to the car. It would appear that the 20p was not accepted by the ticket machine or it is faulty.

Having done some research on KBT Cornwall Ltd trading as Armtrac Security Services it would appear that the best advice is to ignore them. is this still the case?

The ticket that has been issued is really poorly hand written and I can't work out which car park I was supposed to be in as it is unreadable.

Any advice gratefully accepted.

Regards

Paul

Posted by: Gan Sun, 17 Mar 2013 - 16:09
Post #798270

The usual advice is moving toward challenging a ticket and requesting a POPLA code if it isn't cancelled.

This costs them £27 so companies try to avoid providing the codes to targets that won't pay whatever POPLA says

Assuming that you must have paid considerably more than the one hour rate, there's no chance that they would risk court for 20p

You could therefore, with your challenge, include a copy of the ticket you paid for and 20p for the difference.

This needs moving to the private tickets forum

Posted by: Decado Mon, 18 Mar 2013 - 09:56
Post #798508

QUOTE (Gan @ Sun, 17 Mar 2013 - 16:09) *
The usual advice is moving toward challenging a ticket and requesting a POPLA code if it isn't cancelled.

This costs them £27 so companies try to avoid providing the codes to targets that won't pay whatever POPLA says

Assuming that you must have paid considerably more than the one hour rate, there's no chance that they would risk court for 20p

You could therefore, with your challenge, include a copy of the ticket you paid for and 20p for the difference.

This needs moving to the private tickets forum


Thanks Gan

I'll send them a letter detailing what I paid -£2.20 - and the fact that the ticket machine gave me a ticket for £2 which their operative will have taken a photograph of for "evidence".

Is there any advice on what I should AVOID saying? Anything that they can use against me which they might interprete as me accepting "guilt".

Just like to say thanks for your advice (and all the other guys who give freely of their time on this forum).

Posted by: ManxRed Mon, 18 Mar 2013 - 10:00
Post #798509

Post the letter up here before you send it, we'll soon advise if there is anything in there that we feel might be said in a better way.

Posted by: Salmosalaris Mon, 18 Mar 2013 - 10:17
Post #798514

First thing to study is the PCN . Is it schedule 4 compliant to let them invoke keeper liability ?. If its not , they can only chase the driver. In that case wait for the letter to keeper then contact them for a popla code to dispute it on this basis. One idea

Posted by: Decado Mon, 18 Mar 2013 - 10:28
Post #798518

QUOTE (Salmosalaris @ Mon, 18 Mar 2013 - 10:17) *
First thing to study is the PCN . Is it schedule 4 compliant to let them invoke keeper liability ?. If its not , they can only chase the driver. In that case wait for the letter to keeper then contact them for a popla code to dispute it on this basis. One idea


How do I find out if it is Schedule 4 compliant?

Posted by: kommando Mon, 18 Mar 2013 - 10:30
Post #798520

QUOTE
How do I find out if it is Schedule 4 compliant?


Post it here with identification digitally removed, leave the original as it is.

Posted by: Decado Mon, 18 Mar 2013 - 11:45
Post #798557

QUOTE (ManxRed @ Mon, 18 Mar 2013 - 10:00) *
Post the letter up here before you send it, we'll soon advise if there is anything in there that we feel might be said in a better way.


This is the letter I intend to send:

Dear Sir or Madam

Report on faulty parking ticket machine

With reference to ticket number XXXX, dated XXXXXX the charge for the car park in question is £2.20 for two hours parking. £2.20 was inserted into the ticket machine but a ticket for only £2 was issued.

The conclusion, therefore, is that your ticket machine is faulty and requires servicing and repairing so as to avoid any possible occurrences of the above in the future.

I trust that you find this information useful.

Yours, etc


Trying to avoid any suggestion of an appeal or admission of guilt on my part.

Posted by: Salmosalaris Mon, 18 Mar 2013 - 12:01
Post #798564

Id like to see PCN before passing comment

Posted by: Gan Mon, 18 Mar 2013 - 12:26
Post #798570

I wouldn't send anything until they've wasted £2-50 to get your details from DVLA

Posted by: Salmosalaris Mon, 18 Mar 2013 - 12:32
Post #798572

+1

Posted by: Decado Mon, 18 Mar 2013 - 14:38
Post #798630

QUOTE (kommando @ Mon, 18 Mar 2013 - 10:30) *
QUOTE
How do I find out if it is Schedule 4 compliant?


Post it here with identification digitally removed, leave the original as it is.


Hopefully this will work.

Front and back of the PCN as requested.




Posted by: Gan Mon, 18 Mar 2013 - 15:00
Post #798640

Hiding a model and registration number but leaving dates, times and ticket number isn't removing identification

Posted by: Decado Mon, 18 Mar 2013 - 15:25
Post #798646

QUOTE (Decado @ Mon, 18 Mar 2013 - 15:18) *
QUOTE (Gan @ Mon, 18 Mar 2013 - 15:00) *
Hiding a model and registration number but leaving dates, times and ticket number isn't removing identification



Okay, edited the post. Thanks for pointing that out Gan.

Posted by: Ming Rider Mon, 18 Mar 2013 - 15:31
Post #798650

OP, you're right. That is appalling hand writing. Where was this person educated, Chessington Zoo ?

If I'm not mistaken, the signature of the Patrolling Officer says 'M. Gibbon'.

Also, it says at the bottom of the invoice, "See overleaf for the action you MUST take." Misrepresentation surely and therefore, fraud ??

Posted by: Glacier2 Mon, 18 Mar 2013 - 15:46
Post #798660

These are the same crowd that issued notices under the RTRA 1984 citing a made up order.

I would just ignore them.


Posted by: Salmosalaris Mon, 18 Mar 2013 - 16:00
Post #798667

I wouldnt rely purely on bad handwriting to make it non compliant. .Therefore the choice is yours.
A. Ignore unless you get stamped court papers
B . Await letter to keeper , they may screw up on the requirements for that and it costs them £2-50. Then write to PPC . Ask them to detail their case, whether it is for a contractual charge,breach of contract or trespass, so that you may prepare your defence. Demand a popla verification code unless they cancel your charge.
C. Contact now , much as in the letter you posted , but add the points mentioned in B. Trouble is POPLA isnt interested in mitigating circumstances so the problems with the machine wouldnt be considered .

Was signage adequate ?

Posted by: Decado Mon, 18 Mar 2013 - 16:15
Post #798670

QUOTE (Salmosalaris @ Mon, 18 Mar 2013 - 16:00) *
I wouldnt rely purely on bad handwriting to make it non compliant. .Therefore the choice is yours.
A. Ignore unless you get stamped court papers
B . Await letter to keeper , they may screw up on the requirements for that and it costs them £2-50. Then write to PPC . Ask them to detail their case, whether it is for a contractual charge,breach of contract or trespass, so that you may prepare your defence. Demand a popla verification code unless they cancel your charge.
C. Contact now , much as in the letter you posted , but add the points mentioned in B. Trouble is POPLA isnt interested in mitigating circumstances so the problems with the machine wouldnt be considered .

Was signage adequate ?


The signage was adequate so I can't use that.

Posted by: Jlc Mon, 18 Mar 2013 - 16:42
Post #798681

As the machine gobbled the 20p there is no loss.

Who owns the land? Who gets the normal parking fees? Or does Armtrac just scrape off the penalty charge? (Possibly with some form of kickback?)

Or does this http://www.falmouthpacket.co.uk/news/10003940.Visitors__anger_at_unfair_Falmouth_car_park__fines_/?ref=rss reveal?

QUOTE
Armtrac were not available for comment at the time of going to press. Amy Glover, visitor services manager for the National Maritime Museum said: “These cases are new to us and we haven’t heard from these individuals – but would be very happy to.

“We are responsible for the car park and contract Armtrac to manage the daily operations. We are governed by our planning permission which has a requirement for us to manage the car park.

“We do liaise with Armtrac to police the conditions of use. These terms and conditions are displayed in the car park, and as long as Armtrac enforce according to these, we cannot interfere with their operation.

We do not pay Armtrac a fee, and therefore it is at their discretion whether to pursue a fine or not.

“On occasions where we feel that there is a grey area concerning the fine we do intervene with Armtrac and request a review of the fine given.”


Interesting bits in bold.

Posted by: Decado Mon, 18 Mar 2013 - 17:08
Post #798691

It would be interesting to see the contract that Armtrac have with the Museum, if any! Or does Armtrac need a contract with them?

Posted by: Jlc Mon, 18 Mar 2013 - 17:24
Post #798697

...well without the necessary rights how can they even form a contract on land they don't own.

Posted by: bama Mon, 18 Mar 2013 - 18:17
Post #798726

QUOTE (Glacier2 @ Mon, 18 Mar 2013 - 15:46) *
These are the same crowd that issued notices under the RTRA 1984 citing a made up order.

I would just ignore them.


This is KBT Cornwall Limited t/as Armtrac Security Services & MBC Parking Services
Armtrac Security Services is dissolved (they were the 1984 mob weren't they ?)

Posted by: essexdriver Mon, 18 Mar 2013 - 18:31
Post #798731

Can't find their planning application on line - seems to suggest the documents were destroyed in 2005 and are not available to the public. It would need a visit to the Council offices to see the original. Bit odd but this sort of thing happens now and again. Would be interested to see that planning condition though - manage doesn't have to mean bring in the vultures!

Posted by: Decado Tue, 19 Mar 2013 - 08:45
Post #798889

Does Armtrac/KBT issue court orders on a regular basis? Have they ever gone to court and have they ever won?

I have seen one of their court orders on another post on this forum. Hand written and poorly worded. If the guy who wrote my ticket does the court order then the judge won't be able to read it anyway!

I'm still tempted to send them the letter re Faulty Ticket machine but perhaps replace "Parking Charge Notice" with "Speculative Invoice".

Again, thanks for the advice. I've usually paid in the past like so many others but this one really annoyed me so I'm not going to pay now I know more about my rights.

Posted by: Gan Tue, 19 Mar 2013 - 09:31
Post #798906

Vaguely recall reading that they have been to court and lost

I would be inclined to send them a letter now rather than waiting for them to go through DVLA

Point out the faulty machine
Enclose copy of ticket showing payment made for more than one hour
Enclose 20p in full and final settlement, better still a postal order for £1
Request a POPLA code if they want to take it further
Call it a PCN, not "speculative invoice"

The reason I prefer this to waiting is that in the very unlikely event of a claim, the court would look at the behaviour of the parties.

The OP is taking the initiative before Armtrac have incurred any costs.
He's offered a fair settlement while providing evidence that he genuinely tried to pay the correct amount

He therefore demonstrates that he's been as reasonable as possible and Armtrac would be very foolish to take it further.
It will also be informative to see what decision POPLA make in such situations

Posted by: Decado Tue, 19 Mar 2013 - 09:34
Post #798907

QUOTE (Gan @ Tue, 19 Mar 2013 - 09:31) *
Vaguely recall reading that they have been to court and lost

I would be inclined to send them a letter now rather than waiting for them to go through DVLA

Point out the faulty machine
Enclose copy of ticket showing payment made for more than one hour
Enclose 20p in full and final settlement, better still a postal order for £1
Request a POPLA code if they want to take it further
Call it a PCN, not "speculative invoice"

The reason I prefer this to waiting is that in the very unlikely event of a claim, the court would look at the behaviour of the parties.

The OP is taking the initiative before Armtrac have incurred any costs.
He's offered a fair settlement while providing evidence that he genuinely tried to pay the correct amount

He therefore demonstrates that he's been as reasonable as possible and Armtrac would be very foolish to take it further.
It will also be informative to see what decision POPLA make in such situations


Perfect! Thanks Gan.

I'll update if I get any response from Armtrac.

Posted by: Decado Tue, 9 Apr 2013 - 18:54
Post #806255

Okay, I sent a letter re Gan's advice (but without the 20p) but have now received a "rejection" of my appeal despite the fact that my letter was not an appeal! Looks like a standard rejection letter. I have also been sent a POPLA form (4 sides) which has a verification code at the end - a 10 digit number. They have also sent me two pictures of the car park notices and pictures of my car. There is a picture of the parking ticket on my dashboard but it is not time stamped so the photo could have been taken at any time.

What do I need to post on here so that the appropriate advice can be given? Do I send them a letter asking under what grounds they are going to use in the POPLA so I can prepare my defence?

Thanks in advance.

Posted by: SchoolRunMum Tue, 9 Apr 2013 - 22:26
Post #806326

Defence? It's attack not defence that you need for your POPLA wording - and the clock is ticking as you only have 28 days from the date of the rejection letter.

Read threads discussing a POPLA appeal wording - here's one but there are others:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=77378&st=20&start=20

HTH, please don't go it alone, do some reading of POPLA appeals on here and on MSE forums and draft what you plan to say. It should not be an 'appeal' it should be a lengthy legal challenge. Also don't waste this opportunity to get the thing cancelled by POPLA, so don't just ignore this stage like some posters have - because most appeals there do now win, we find, as long as they are well-worded, lots of valid points.

Posted by: Vinesh Patel Tue, 9 Apr 2013 - 23:46
Post #806341

POPLA is definitely the right next step. PPC's lose the majority of the time when faced with a POPLA appeal, which should be case closed for your case.

Posted by: Decado Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 07:57
Post #806374

I don't know if it is relevant but one of the pictures that they have sent me is the list of tariffs. At the bottom of the tariff list is a sentence "VOID A FINE PURCHASE SUFFICIENT TIME" which I assume would read in full "TO AVOID A FINE PURCHASE SUFFICIENT TIME" (poorly taken photo). Does a PPC have the authority to issue fines?

Also, the ticket does show a fee of £2 (£2.20 was put into the machine). The notice says £2.20 for two hours. So, pro rata, the ticket should be good for approximately one hour 50 minutes of parking. We left before we had parked there for that length of time so, in theory, I am owed money as the car was not parked for the length of time purchased! So, there was no loss to the PPC or the landowner, rather a gain. Worth trying to get that argument in?

Posted by: nigelbb Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 08:35
Post #806392

QUOTE (Decado @ Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 08:57) *
I don't know if it is relevant but one of the pictures that they have sent me is the list of tariffs. At the bottom of the tariff list is a sentence "VOID A FINE PURCHASE SUFFICIENT TIME" which I assume would read in full "TO AVOID A FINE PURCHASE SUFFICIENT TIME" (poorly taken photo). Does a PPC have the authority to issue fines?

Also, the ticket does show a fee of £2 (£2.20 was put into the machine). The notice says £2.20 for two hours. So, pro rata, the ticket should be good for approximately one hour 50 minutes of parking. We left before we had parked there for that length of time so, in theory, I am owed money as the car was not parked for the length of time purchased! So, there was no loss to the PPC or the landowner, rather a gain. Worth trying to get that argument in?


Absobloodylutely! Breach of BPA CoP - Section 14 Misrepresentation of authority

Posted by: ManxRed Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 09:11
Post #806402

Lovely. One for the DVLA. Anyone got the most up to date contact email??

QUOTE (nigelbb @ Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 09:35) *
Absobloodylutely! Breach of BPA CoP - Section 14 Misrepresentation of authority


Although we'd need the BPA to confirm this, presumably. wink.gif

Posted by: nigelbb Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 09:39
Post #806407

QUOTE (ManxRed @ Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 10:11) *
Lovely. One for the DVLA. Anyone got the most up to date contact email??


My complaint to the DVLA regarding NCP's breach of the CoP was answered by Elizabeth.Symons@dvla.gsi.gov.uk

Posted by: ManxRed Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 10:12
Post #806421

@ Decado:

Please send an email to the DVLA, with a copy of the picture of the sign, and state that you believe that this is a breach of the British Parking Association's Code of Practice (namely section 14 - Misrepresentation of Authority) by virtue of the parking company's claim that they can issue fines in respect of parking infringements and that you would expect them to investigate the matter accordingly.

Let us know what they come back with.

Posted by: Decado Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 13:30
Post #806554

Here is the offending sign with the reference to "fine" in the bottom left hand corner. The cut off is due to the original photographer and not me.


Posted by: Decado Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 13:54
Post #806576

And the letter that came with it.



Posted by: Salmosalaris Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 13:54
Post #806577

What's an especially adapted vehicle ??
Don't you just love em !

Posted by: SchoolRunMum Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 14:10
Post #806594

So as well as sending a copy of that sign with the fine wording to the DVLA with a complaint email, you need to work on your POPLA challenge. Please read other threads and links already given, include all points already made in this thread, and show us what you have drafted in a few days please. Not juist a soft appeal, a challenge with lots of points like you will see in the links already given, and including a paragraph about the breach of the BPA Code by calling it a fine - which leads nicely onto another paragraph about the amount being an obvious penalty/punitive.

Does the attached POPLA form include a verification code for you to use online, seeing as the letter doesn't?

Posted by: swellchaser Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 14:12
Post #806596

Subject to a check later. That letter is word 4 word to the one I received for a 'failure to display' at Hayle. :@

Posted by: Jlc Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 14:14
Post #806597

QUOTE (Decado @ Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 14:30) *
Here is the offending sign with the reference to "fine" in the bottom right hand corner. The cut off is due to the original photographer and not me.

Bottom left corner? Definitely worth a complaint to BPA/DVLA - they are expressly not allowed to use penalty or fine.

So they actual sent their own evidence of the non-compliant sign???

Posted by: Decado Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 14:37
Post #806607

QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 15:14) *
QUOTE (Decado @ Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 14:30) *
Here is the offending sign with the reference to "fine" in the bottom right hand corner. The cut off is due to the original photographer and not me.

Bottom left corner? Definitely worth a complaint to BPA/DVLA - they are expressly not allowed to use penalty or fine.

So they actual sent their own evidence of the non-compliant sign???


They did!


QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 15:14) *
QUOTE (Decado @ Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 14:30) *
Here is the offending sign with the reference to "fine" in the bottom right hand corner. The cut off is due to the original photographer and not me.

Bottom left corner? Definitely worth a complaint to BPA/DVLA - they are expressly not allowed to use penalty or fine.

So they actual sent their own evidence of the non-compliant sign???


PS You are right - it is bottom left. Post now edited.

QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 15:10) *
So as well as sending a copy of that sign with the fine wording to the DVLA with a complaint email, you need to work on your POPLA challenge. Please read other threads and links already given, include all points already made in this thread, and show us what you have drafted in a few days please. Not juist a soft appeal, a challenge with lots of points like you will see in the links already given, and including a paragraph about the breach of the BPA Code by calling it a fine - which leads nicely onto another paragraph about the amount being an obvious penalty/punitive.

Does the attached POPLA form include a verification code for you to use online, seeing as the letter doesn't?


Thanks for that SchoolRunMum. I'll trawl through the other threads and links a draft a response. There seems to be a lot of other ammunition I can use beyond what I have already detailed.

The POPLA form (4 pages) contains a 10 digit verification code on the last page, the one where I have to fill in my details and reasons for my appeal.

I have now sent off a complaint to the DVLA. However, the jpeg I attached was too big to be sent. Zipping it didn't really help. I've used tinypic and pasted into the body of the text (the URL for email). Hope it works.

Can always try the lady referred to in someone else's post.

Posted by: Jlc Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 14:49
Post #806615

As the ticket shows £2 paid (along with the explanation) I think they would be churlish to pursue this further... (Just playing a game of bluff at the moment)

Posted by: Decado Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 14:52
Post #806619

QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 15:49) *
As the ticket shows £2 paid (along with the explanation) I think they would be churlish to pursue this further... (Just playing a game of bluff at the moment)


In theory, they owe me money if they try the old breaching a contract thingie as £2 would buy approximately 1 hour 50 minutes. We left after 90 minutes so I am owed 20 minutes - approximately 37p :-)

Posted by: minotaur Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 15:38
Post #806634

Another, but minor, point -

"The vehicle was of a class prohibited from using the car park."

So there must be other T & Cs not on display so (presumably) making any contract void.

Posted by: Jlc Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 16:14
Post #806655

QUOTE (Decado @ Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 15:52) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 15:49) *
As the ticket shows £2 paid (along with the explanation) I think they would be churlish to pursue this further... (Just playing a game of bluff at the moment)


In theory, they owe me money if they try the old breaching a contract thingie as £2 would buy approximately 1 hour 50 minutes. We left after 90 minutes so I am owed 20 minutes - approximately 37p :-)

I'm sure the comprehensive contract stipulates that no refunds are allowed for 'under usage'. You must have remembered agreeing to that when you negotiated and signed the contact? tongue.gif

Posted by: bama Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 17:01
Post #806685

A copy of that letter should go to TS !

referring to the last part - should you lose at POPLA you will be required to pay £100.
Clearly abd materially false and misleading, a breach of CPUTR and the criminal part at that IMO

Posted by: Decado Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 17:08
Post #806689

QUOTE (bama @ Wed, 10 Apr 2013 - 18:01) *
A copy of that letter should go to TS !

referring to the last part - should you lose at POPLA you will be required to pay £100.
Clearly abd materially false and misleading, a breach of CPUTR and the criminal part at that IMO


I missed that! From what I have read on this forum the POPLA decision is not binding on me, just the PPC. Quite a threatening tone as well.

Are they truly stupid? They have already given me so much ammunition in their refusal of my "appeal".

Posted by: Decado Thu, 11 Apr 2013 - 08:16
Post #806897

From what I have read on this forum (and apologies if I've misunderstood) should I be writing to the PPC to request:

- details of the contract they hold with the Maritime Museum, specifically the part that gives them the authority to collect money for Parking Charge Notices
- the basis for their claim - breach of contract, trespass, damages to property, losses
- details of the authority to collect fines as detailed on their sign

All of which I will need to formulate my POPLA appeal. Anything else I need to request?

Should I point out the pro rata aspect of the amount shown on the ticket and challenge that I had not bought sufficient time for the time parked (their faulty ticket machine not withstanding).

Any comments/thoughts welcome.

Posted by: Jlc Thu, 11 Apr 2013 - 08:30
Post #806904

QUOTE (Decado @ Thu, 11 Apr 2013 - 09:16) *
Should I point out the pro rata aspect of the amount shown on the ticket and challenge that I had not bought sufficient time for the time parked (their faulty ticket machine not withstanding).

POPLA deal in absolutes - so if there's no offer of pro-rata'd time then none is allowed and the parking time was exceeded. They will not use common-sense and rule in your favour - nor will they consider mitigating factors.

The contract is a good one as they probably won't want to share it... Also the misrepresentation of authority (see section 14.2 http://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS/BPA_CodeofPractice_2013_v1.pdf)

Posted by: Decado Thu, 11 Apr 2013 - 08:38
Post #806906

QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 11 Apr 2013 - 09:30) *
QUOTE (Decado @ Thu, 11 Apr 2013 - 09:16) *
Should I point out the pro rata aspect of the amount shown on the ticket and challenge that I had not bought sufficient time for the time parked (their faulty ticket machine not withstanding).

POPLA deal in absolutes - so if there's no offer of pro-rata'd time then none is allowed and the parking time was exceeded. They will not use common-sense and rule in your favour - nor will they consider mitigating factors.

The contract is a good one as they probably won't want to share it... Also the misrepresentation of authority (see section 14.2 http://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/Documents/AOS/BPA_CodeofPractice_2013_v1.pdf)


Thanks Jlc. Regarding the pro rata thing, I was referring to my letter to the PPC. However, from what you say, I can't use that for the POPLA appeal and, thinking further, the PPC will probably just ignore it anyway.


Posted by: SchoolRunMum Thu, 11 Apr 2013 - 12:04
Post #806971

Just trying to show you sort of long challenge I think you should be drafting...here's one I wrote on MSE (as Coupon-mad) which is actually fairly short:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4506249

In that one I didn't even bother with the 'punitive/unfair...against various laws' stuff that you will find on the Parking Cowboys challenge template...not that I am saying you should copy directly from a template, and do be aware that the Parking Cowboys one isn't written for POPLA, it's written to give people ideas for a first challenge to a PPC.

I just want to show you the things to consider - POPLA only need to find in your favour on one point so be clear on what hurdles you are setting up for the PPC to fall at. You could show us your draft POPLA appeal here for comments if you like.

Posted by: Decado Fri, 12 Apr 2013 - 08:25
Post #807256

QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Thu, 11 Apr 2013 - 13:04) *
Just trying to show you sort of long challenge I think you should be drafting...here's one I wrote on MSE (as Coupon-mad) which is actually fairly short:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4506249

In that one I didn't even bother with the 'punitive/unfair...against various laws' stuff that you will find on the Parking Cowboys challenge template...not that I am saying you should copy directly from a template, and do be aware that the Parking Cowboys one isn't written for POPLA, it's written to give people ideas for a first challenge to a PPC.

I just want to show you the things to consider - POPLA only need to find in your favour on one point so be clear on what hurdles you are setting up for the PPC to fall at. You could show us your draft POPLA appeal here for comments if you like.


Thanks again SRM. I have seen some of the posts in MSE that you did. Loads of fantastic information. I will be writing to Armtrac to ask for details of their contract with the Museum, details of their authority to issue fines (their signage has the word "fine" prominently displayed, which I understand is against Section 14.2 of the BPA CoP), and what they are going to base their "case" on - breach of contract, trespass or loss/damages.

I have also found the contact details of the people who run the Museum (and own the car park) and will be emailing to complain about this.

Posted by: Jlc Fri, 12 Apr 2013 - 08:40
Post #807261

QUOTE (Decado @ Fri, 12 Apr 2013 - 09:25) *
their signage has the word "fine" prominently displayed, which I understand is against Section 14.2 of the BPA CoP

Yup, 14.2 in the latest version: (Misrepresentation of authority)

QUOTE
You must not use terms which imply that parking is being managed, controlled and enforced under statutory authority. This includes using terms such as ‘fine’, ‘penalty’ or ‘penalty charge notice’.

Posted by: Decado Fri, 12 Apr 2013 - 16:17
Post #807448

Re-sent details of the incorrect signage to the DVLA using the FOI@dvla.gov.uk via hotmail as the original may not have got through due to the large file size of the photo.

Also sent an email to Jonathan Griffin, Director, at the Maritime Museum. Polite but pointing out that they may want to avoid further embarrassment as they got last year - http://www.falmouthpacket.co.uk/news/cornwall_news/10003940.Visitors__anger_at_unfair_Falmouth_car_park__fines_/ , etc.

Scarily enough, I'm quite enjoying this. The British thing of the little guy getting back at stupid bureaucracy.

If only I'd known of this forum when my partner got a fine from parking at the local Aldi.



Posted by: SchoolRunMum Sat, 13 Apr 2013 - 01:11
Post #807551

It's FOI@dvla.gsi.gov.uk so re-send it.

And your partner DID NOT get a fine for parking at Aldi.

Posted by: Decado Sat, 13 Apr 2013 - 12:26
Post #807657

QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Sat, 13 Apr 2013 - 02:11) *
It's FOI@dvla.gsi.gov.uk so re-send it.

And your partner DID NOT get a fine for parking at Aldi.


Thanks SchoolRunMum. It will be re-sent.

You are correct. She still thinks of it as a "fine" though.

Posted by: Decado Sun, 14 Apr 2013 - 15:53
Post #807999

Below is a draft of the letter I intend to send to Armtrac so as to obtain the information I require to include in the POPLA. I would be grateful for any comments, additions, etc.

With reference to Parking Charge Notice XXXX

Thank you for your letter dated XXXX and received on XXXX which contains several factual errors.

I must admit to being surprised that you refer to my letter as an “appeal” as I do not recall making one.

However, you have decided to incorrectly interpret my letter as an “appeal” and take this further.

To ensure that I can correctly formulate my appeal to POPLA I require the following information from yourselves by XXXXX to allow me to respond to the POPLA appeal which is due on the XXXXX.

1. Your authority to issue a “fine”. In the photograph of the sign detailing the parking tariff that you sent me, there is a clear reference to a “fine” in the bottom left hand corner of the sign. It is my understanding that only statutory bodies are allowed to issue fines. If you have such authority please send the details to me. If not then you are in breach of the British Parking Association Code of Practice, Section 14.2. I believe that your company is a member of the British Parking Association.

2. The confirmation that you are landowner/landholder of the Maritime Car Park. If you are not the landowner/landholder or do not have a proprietary interest in the Car Park please send me a copy of the contract that you hold with the landowner/landholder that gives you clear authorisation from the landowner/landholder to manage and enforce parking and allows you to issue parking charge notices.

3. Please let me know on what grounds you are asking for payment:

• Breach of contract
• Loss or damages
• Trespass

If loss or damages please detail the genuine pre-estimate of the loss or actual damages suffered by your business or the landowner/landholder if you are not the landowner/ landholder.

If trespass please detail the damages caused by the alleged trespass to your business or the landowner/landholder if you are not the landowner/landholder.

I look forward to your response.

Posted by: hoohoo Sun, 14 Apr 2013 - 16:22
Post #808009

It's fine to ask them for these things, but you don't need to wait for their reply.

POPLA cases have been won just by asking POPLA for those documents, without previously asking the PPC. The PPC then typically do not supply them, and POPLA rule in your favour.

If they do decide to supply them, then you will be copied in on them before the appeal date, and you then have a chance to scrutinise them and add further points to your appeal if you wish, up to the date the appeal is held.

To point 2. I would add something on the lines of '...and allows you to pursue unpaid parking charges in the county court.'

Posted by: Decado Mon, 15 Apr 2013 - 10:01
Post #808307

QUOTE (hoohoo @ Sun, 14 Apr 2013 - 17:22) *
It's fine to ask them for these things, but you don't need to wait for their reply.

POPLA cases have been won just by asking POPLA for those documents, without previously asking the PPC. The PPC then typically do not supply them, and POPLA rule in your favour.

If they do decide to supply them, then you will be copied in on them before the appeal date, and you then have a chance to scrutinise them and add further points to your appeal if you wish, up to the date the appeal is held.

To point 2. I would add something on the lines of '...and allows you to pursue unpaid parking charges in the county court.'


Thanks but I'd rather not bring up the idea of "county court" just yet :-)

Let's see how the POPLA appeal goes. Seen something on another thread regarding getting the start of an appeal in early though.

Posted by: Decado Mon, 15 Apr 2013 - 17:17
Post #808545

QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Sat, 13 Apr 2013 - 02:11) *
It's FOI@dvla.gsi.gov.uk so re-send it.

And your partner DID NOT get a fine for parking at Aldi.


DVLA has come back to me with:

Thank you for your email received on XXX. Your email reference number is XXXXX.



For further assistance, please contact:



British Parking Association



Telephone - 01444447300



I hope this helps.


I think there is an email address for BPA elsewhere on this forum so I'll dig that out and send the same to them.

Posted by: bama Mon, 15 Apr 2013 - 20:16
Post #808649

what about TS ?

Posted by: Decado Thu, 18 Apr 2013 - 13:12
Post #809808

I thought I'd send an email to the Maritime Museum explaining the situation to see if they would do anything. Here is their cop out reply:

"Thank you for your email addressed to Jonathan Griffin which has been passed to me to respond to. Whilst we are responsible for the Maritime car park, we employ Armtrac to manage to daily operations as we are required by our planning permission to have a process of penalty fees. Armtrac are governed by the British Parking Association and they have to operate under their strict regulations.

We have checked both of the parking machines for faults and both are in full working order. I have also spoken to the patrol officer who was on duty and there were no other reports of the machines being faulty. As I am sure you will appreciate, we would expect to receive a number of similar complaints if the machines had not been working properly and therefore it would appear that your 20p must have gone into the ‘returned coins’ trough rather than registering through the machine. Unfortunately it is the driver’s responsibility to check that the correct amount has been paid at the time the ticket is purchased and therefore, in relation to your penalty charge, I am afraid that we are not in a position to intervene. We have agreed terms and conditions with Armtrac, which are displayed in the car park, and as long as Armtrac enforce according to our terms and conditions, we cannot interfere with their operation. I can fully appreciate that you had every intention of displaying a valid ticket, however at the time you were penalised, your ticket had run out and therefore Armtrac are within their rights to pursue payment of the Charge Notice.

I understand that when you experience something like this, it inevitably tarnishes your visit to Falmouth and we certainly work very hard to encourage visitors to the town and support the town activities. The newspaper article that you refer to is actually factually incorrect and we subsequently discovered that the two incidents related to the adjacent car park (which is also managed by Armtrac but not under our terms and conditions). We will always look into complaints as they are raised and liaise with Armtrac as necessary. I understand your irritation at having been charged a penalty fee, but in this instance I feel that Armtrac were not breaking any terms or conditions surrounding the management of the car park.

I’m sorry that I cannot be of any further help to you regarding this."

So no help there then!

Posted by: Jlc Thu, 18 Apr 2013 - 13:38
Post #809819

So it IS a penalty then. Whoops!

I suggest you get a copy of this 'planning permission'.

Posted by: Decado Thu, 18 Apr 2013 - 14:01
Post #809836

QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 18 Apr 2013 - 14:38) *
So it IS a penalty then. Whoops!

I suggest you get a copy of this 'planning permission'.


Email reply sent referring to the fact that Armtrac's signs have the word fine on them, the fact that the Museum see it as a penalty and a request for a copy of the planning permission which allows them to be a statutory authority.

Feel a bit sorry for the lass who replied for her boss but it won't stop me carrying on this! In the end, the Museum is responsible for the actions of their agent, Armtrac.

Posted by: Jlc Thu, 18 Apr 2013 - 15:22
Post #809867

QUOTE (Decado @ Thu, 18 Apr 2013 - 15:01) *
the Museum is responsible for the actions of their agent, Armtrac.

Indeed, this is a fact many companies think they can wash their hands of.

Posted by: Broadsman Thu, 18 Apr 2013 - 15:26
Post #809872

QUOTE (Decado @ Thu, 18 Apr 2013 - 14:12) *
I’m sorry that I cannot be of any further help to you regarding this."

So no help there then!


I believe they have been a great help. By continually informing you that it is a penalty blows the PPC's arguments out of the water.


Posted by: Decado Thu, 18 Apr 2013 - 15:34
Post #809875

QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 18 Apr 2013 - 16:22) *
QUOTE (Decado @ Thu, 18 Apr 2013 - 15:01) *
the Museum is responsible for the actions of their agent, Armtrac.

Indeed, this is a fact many companies think they can wash their hands of.


Especially when the agent involved's signage is breaching the BPA CoP and the company is backing this up with references to penalties in their communication to me.

QUOTE (Broadsman @ Thu, 18 Apr 2013 - 16:26) *
QUOTE (Decado @ Thu, 18 Apr 2013 - 14:12) *
I’m sorry that I cannot be of any further help to you regarding this."

So no help there then!


I believe they have been a great help. By continually informing you that it is a penalty blows the PPC's arguments out of the water.


Very nice of them! Do you think it is worth including the email from the Museum in my POPLA appeal?

So far:

- reference to a fine in their signage
- the amount is punitive and amounts to a penalty, something backed up by their "contractor"
- do they have even a contract with the landowner
- what are they claiming for - loss, damages, trespass, breach of contract.

The list builds to a nice long challenge for the POPLA.

Posted by: bama Thu, 18 Apr 2013 - 16:00
Post #809893

QUOTE
as we are required by our planning permission to have a process of penalty fees.

as above - v.doubtful indeed.
QUOTE
Armtrac are governed by the British Parking Association

Nope they are members of the trade association

They are the Principal and have admitted they condone the actions of their Agent.
Nice of them to place themselves in the cross hairs like that.

what about TS ?

Posted by: Decado Thu, 18 Apr 2013 - 16:07
Post #809900

QUOTE (bama @ Thu, 18 Apr 2013 - 17:00) *
QUOTE
as we are required by our planning permission to have a process of penalty fees.

as above - v.doubtful indeed.
QUOTE
Armtrac are governed by the British Parking Association

Nope they are members of the trade association

They are the Principal and have admitted they condone the actions of their Agent.
Nice of them to place themselves in the cross hairs like that.

what about TS ?


Afraid I haven't had time (very busy week at work as we are undergoing a "re-organisation") to dig out a copy of the CPUTR. Any direction to the relevant part so I can get TS involved would be welcome.

Posted by: dp7 Thu, 18 Apr 2013 - 16:24
Post #809913

QUOTE (Decado @ Thu, 18 Apr 2013 - 17:07) *
Afraid I haven't had time (very busy week at work as we are undergoing a "re-organisation") to dig out a copy of the CPUTR. Any direction to the relevant part so I can get TS involved would be welcome.


Regulation 5, I think - misleading actions. bama may correct me though!

I don't buy that line about the planning permission either, sounds like a load of rubbish.

Posted by: bama Thu, 18 Apr 2013 - 16:43
Post #809931

okay a quickie.
(see http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=77954&st=20&p=805190&#entry805190 for loadsa text)


copy of that letter - keep the original

highlighter pen over the
'should you lose at POPLA You will be required to pay £100'
mention
"Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4
of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012:
Recovery of Unpaid Parking Charges"
from the DfT
http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/guidance-unpaid-parking-charges/guidance-unpaid-parking-charges.pdf

and quote
15.6 If the Independent Appeals Service upholds a driver’s or a registered keeper’s appeal, the landholder will be required to cancel the ticket as directed by the appeals service. If the appeals service rejects an appeal the landholder may then choose to take court action to recover the amount outstanding if the driver or registered keeper still refuses to pay the parking charge.

POPLA is not binding on the motorist so clearly and unarguably a failed appeal at POPLA creates no requirement in law or otherwise to pay.

"As a brief summary I now highlight just some of the issues at this stage. I reserve the right to submit a further and detailed analysis should one be needed."
(use that exact quote)
Thus Arntrac's actions are clearly on their face misleading (CPUTR reg 5) false i.e untruthful (CPUTR Reg 5) and aggressive (CPUTR Reg 7) .
Armtrac have breached their general duty not to trade unfairly (CPUTR Reg 8)

CPUTR Reg 12 is engaged.

I am aware that all transgressions, criminal or not, are made community infringements under
Part 8 of the Enterprise Act (Regs. 27-9, so meaning that they are
enforceable by the authorities by way of civil injunctions.

Yours
---


see what others chip in with

Posted by: Decado Mon, 22 Apr 2013 - 08:19
Post #811114

Success!!!!!

Last Thursday I sent the following to Armtrac via email:

"With reference to Parking Charge Notice XXXXX

Thank you for your letter dated XXXXX and received on XXXXXX

To ensure that I can correctly formulate my appeal to POPLA I require the following information from yourselves by XXXXX to allow me to respond to the POPLA appeal which is due on XXXXX

1. Your authority to issue a “fine”. In the photograph of the sign detailing the parking tariff that you sent me, there is a clear reference to a “fine” in the bottom left hand corner of the sign. It is my understanding that only statutory bodies are allowed to issue fines. If you have such authority please send the details to me. If not then you are in breach of the British Parking Association Code of Practice, Section 14.2. I believe that your company is a member of the British Parking Association.

2. The confirmation that you are the landowner/landholder of the Maritime Car Park. If you are not the landowner/landholder or do not have a proprietary interest in the Car Park please send me a copy of the contract that you hold with the landowner/landholder that gives you clear authorisation from the landowner/landholder to manage and enforce parking and allows you to issue parking charge notices.

3. Please let me know on what grounds you are asking for payment:

· Breach of contract
· Loss or damages
· Trespass

If loss or damages please detail the genuine pre-estimate of the loss or actual damages suffered by your business or the landowner/landholder if you are not the landowner/ landholder.

If trespass please detail the damages caused by the alleged trespass to your business or the landowner/landholder if you are not the landowner/landholder.

I look forward to your response."

This morning I returned from a trip to Edinburgh and found the following email in my inbox from last Friday:

"Dear Sir

With reference to the above PCN. Thank you for your further letter
regarding this matter.

Having readdressed your comments this PCN has now been cancelled.

Regards
Armtrac Security Services"

Thank you for all you advice on this superb forum. Just need to make sure the POPLA has been cancelled.

Also got an email from BPA saying that they wil be investigating the use of the word "fine" on their signage.



Posted by: ItchyCrakus Mon, 22 Apr 2013 - 08:51
Post #811122

3 sanction points for them then.

Posted by: Jlc Mon, 22 Apr 2013 - 08:54
Post #811124

Result! Going to reply to the museum to rub it in? wink.gif

Posted by: Decado Mon, 22 Apr 2013 - 09:05
Post #811129

QUOTE (Jlc @ Mon, 22 Apr 2013 - 09:54) *
Result! Going to reply to the museum to rub it in? wink.gif


I will certainly let the Museum know that the PCN has been cancelled and that the BPA will be investigating Armtrac regarding their signage but I won't rub it in. Just hope they get the message.

Posted by: bama Mon, 22 Apr 2013 - 16:57
Post #811321

Nice.
Still reckon you should follow up with TS.
CPUTR is about them misleading "the average consumer" not about you being misled.
If you wre JK MAacleod you would still have cause for complaint.

They have used 'common text' that many PPCs use and the more this goes to TS the better IMO.
In the 'POPLA frenzy' (tm pending smile.gif ) it seems to me that many PPCs have lost sight of CPUTR
despite it laying out clear criminal offences,,,

Posted by: SchoolRunMum Tue, 23 Apr 2013 - 00:06
Post #811474

Well done, that's the first Armtrac one I can recall being cancelled at this early stage. They don't like the idea of POPLA I suspect!

Posted by: Decado Tue, 23 Apr 2013 - 07:50
Post #811507

QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Tue, 23 Apr 2013 - 01:06) *
Well done, that's the first Armtrac one I can recall being cancelled at this early stage. They don't like the idea of POPLA I suspect!


What a shame that they wasted £27 plus VAT to get a POPLA verification code only to cancel the PCN when I asked for more information for my POPLA appeal.

Looking back on what I did, the initial letter I sent to them probably marked me as a soft touch who was probably ignorant of what PPCs could or could not do. This forum changed that!

Posted by: jdh Tue, 23 Apr 2013 - 08:13
Post #811510

QUOTE (Decado @ Tue, 23 Apr 2013 - 08:50) *
Looking back on what I did, the initial letter I sent to them probably marked me as a soft touch who was probably ignorant of what PPCs could or could not do.

Probably the way forward for all, weak challenge as a placeholder and to get the proper ball rolling then pop up at POPLA with the real argument.

Posted by: Broadsman Tue, 23 Apr 2013 - 17:26
Post #811785

But do they have to pay their £27 + VAT when they issue a POPLA code OR when it gets to appeal, i.e. once your defence has been submitted?

By cancelling, have they not saved themselves the cost?


Posted by: hoohoo Tue, 23 Apr 2013 - 17:35
Post #811791

The OP said their POPLA appeal was 'due on the XXX'. I'm assuming this means 'due to be adjudicated by' and not 'has to be submitted by'. You only know when your appeal is due to be adjudicated once you have started your POPLA appeal.

I think therefore, that they have already been charged £27. Let's hope POPLA don't do refunds!

Posted by: swellchaser Tue, 23 Apr 2013 - 17:55
Post #811798

They could always 'appeal'..... tongue.gif

Posted by: Decado Wed, 24 Apr 2013 - 20:35
Post #812353

QUOTE (hoohoo @ Tue, 23 Apr 2013 - 18:35) *
The OP said their POPLA appeal was 'due on the XXX'. I'm assuming this means 'due to be adjudicated by' and not 'has to be submitted by'. You only know when your appeal is due to be adjudicated once you have started your POPLA appeal.

I think therefore, that they have already been charged £27. Let's hope POPLA don't do refunds!


I just took the date from their "rejection of appeal letter" and the date of my receipt of said letter and added about 28 days to get the date of XXXXX. My heart bleeds for their loss of £27 + VAT :-)

Posted by: Jack155 Thu, 9 May 2013 - 18:02
Post #817998

I have been reading this forum with interest since being ticketed by these guys a while ago, and have found out a couple of things that may be of use to you guys

Firstly there is no charge to the PPC for issuing a POPLA code, it is formulated in house based on their unique 3 digit code (first 3 digits), followed by numbers formulated from the date that the appeal was rejected (so POPLA can tell if they have appealed to them within the required time scale) i.e. the number of the day of the year (jan 1st being 001 and 31st dec being 365), followed by the year as a single digit (2013 being 3 and 2014 being 4) and finally a 3 digit number representing your position in the number of appeals they have rejected on that particular day (so if your appeal was the 5th rejection of the day then its 005).

Secondly, the BPA rarely issue sanction points as they believe that it is more appropriate to issue warnings i.e. address this issue and prove that it has been done or we will give you sanction points. Therefore your wasting you time solely complaining to POPLA or BPA. Wait for them to get your details from the DVLA, then complain to the DVLA; that way the BPA will be forced to act appropriately/effectively.


Posted by: nigelbb Thu, 9 May 2013 - 18:19
Post #818010

QUOTE (Jack155 @ Thu, 9 May 2013 - 19:02) *
Firstly there is no charge to the PPC for issuing a POPLA code, it is formulated in house based on their unique 3 digit code (first 3 digits), followed by numbers formulated from the date that the appeal was rejected (so POPLA can tell if they have appealed to them within the required time scale) i.e. the number of the day of the year (jan 1st being 001 and 31st dec being 365), followed by the year as a single digit (2013 being 3 and 2014 being 4) and finally a 3 digit number representing your position in the number of appeals they have rejected on that particular day (so if your appeal was the 5th rejection of the day then its 005).

That's very interesting information to stored away & used if necessary. You must have some insider knowledge to provide this method of decoding.

Posted by: bama Fri, 10 May 2013 - 07:19
Post #818208

seconded. very interesting to see the algorithm.

Powered by Invision Power Board (http://www.invisionboard.com)
© Invision Power Services (http://www.invisionpower.com)