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Help with challenge letter for pay and display out of hours
i_was_adaze
post Sun, 19 Jan 2020 - 11:30
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Hi All,

I received a PCN yesterday for parking in an electric vehicles parking place during restricted hours at Wandle Recreation Centre. The pay and display car park operates 9am-5pm Monday to Saturday. I parked at 7pm on Saturday and received the PCN at 20.30.

I have parked here for several years and never had any issues. I have checked back this morning and the bay I parked in has no signage, but the bay next to where I was parked does have an electric vehicle charging point only sign. None of the other bays in the car park have bay specific signage only that one bay that I was parked next to. I wasn’t aware I was parking in an electric vehicle only space as there was nothing obvious telling me I could not, the bay was indistinguishable from any other bay in the car park.

The signage at the pay point makes no mention of electric vehicles.

As the car parked has two gateway signs clearly indicating the parking restriction times, I do not know why this parking ticket has been issued.

I was going to challenge on the basis that the parking contravention did not occur, for two reasons. One, I was outside of the restriction times shown on the entry signs. Two, there was no further signage in the bay that I parked in.

Does this seem reasonable?

I am not up to date on my PCN contents, but the vehicle was observed from 20.30 to 20.30 and not signed, are either of these items incorrect? The photos from the council are woeful and they aren’t really very clear at all.

Thanks!



















Council Photos

https://postimg.cc/gallery/3c95v8jpk/
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post Sun, 19 Jan 2020 - 11:30
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stamfordman
post Sun, 19 Jan 2020 - 12:09
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So you reckon that because the charging bay on the left doesn't have its own sign this is grounds for challenge but you knew the bay has a charging machine when you parked?
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Incandescent
post Sun, 19 Jan 2020 - 19:27
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So, you parked on a bay with a charging machine at the back, just like the other one had. There was a sign by the second machine that stated "Electric vehicle charging only", and you're saying the sign only applied to the second bay ? If I was an adjudicator I would be thinking "pull the other leg, it's got bells on" ! Just accept you are bang-to-rights.
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cp8759
post Sun, 19 Jan 2020 - 20:40
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This being a car park, it's only a contravention if the car park tariff board says so. Therefore, we need to see a picture of the car park terms and conditions. If this is the only sign https://postimg.cc/K11fFNfP then, based on what adjudicators have previously said, the alleged contravention did not occur because nothing says that parking an ICE car in an electric charging bay is prohibited or could result in a PCN.


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i_was_adaze
post Tue, 21 Jan 2020 - 16:17
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Thank you for all the replies.

The only sign in the car park that lists anything to do with terms and conditions is the photo that i posted already, no mention of electric vehicles, or that some bays have different restrictions.

I only mention the sign as a with hindsight mention. If they had have been a sign in that bay then i would have had no justification to park there. Only having one sign when there are two bays, and not even putting the sign in the middle of the bays, somewhat implies that only the one bay with a sign is for one electric vehicle. I don't agree with the assumption that someone should recognise a car charger and not park there as a result. If i had realised that it was an electric vehicle bay only I wouldn't have parked there as there was other empty spaces available.

I have no issue conceding if I am in the wrong, in this scenario I don't believe I am. IMO one sign to apply to two bays is not compliant signage. If there were two signs, one for each bay that is not covered by the rest of the car park restrictions, I agree that wouldn't have a leg to stand on. IMO the council have made little attempt to make the parking restrictions clear, each bay should have signage if it isn't covered by the same restriction as the rest of the car park.

cp8759 - do you believe it would be worth adding this point to the challenge?

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i_was_adaze
post Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 17:08
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Any thoughts? I have FOI'd Wandsworth as their own guidance is blank on whether a 5 minute grace period should apply to electric vehicle charging bays. They do allow a 5 minute grace period for the same bays on street.

Currently my letter is going as follows.

I wish to challenge PCN xxxxx, issued on xxxxx at Wandle Recreation Ground on the basis that the contravention did not occur.

The gateway signage on entering the car park identifies the car park as being pay and display, with regulatory hours between 9am and 5pm, Monday to Saturday (figure 1). I parked in the car park at 7pm, and the PCN was issued at 8.30pm. Therefore I believe that the PCN was not issued in accordance with the regulatory times of the car park and should be cancelled.

The officer photographed the sign in the bay adjacent to the bay that I was parked in (figure 2), presumably as there is no signage that directly applied to the bay I parked in. No other bay in the car park has any supplementary signage, other than the bay adjacent to where I parked. There was no signage in place when I parked (figure 3 - taken next day), indicating that there were any other restrictions to that bay, or that I could not park there. If it is implied that one sign would apply to two bays then this is not sufficiently clear and furthermore there was a vehicle parked in the adjacent bay when I parked, and I made a reasonable assumption that signage in their bay would only apply to their bay. On the basis that there was no signage that applied to the bay I was parked in this PCN should be cancelled.

I don't want to pack lots of non essential information in, but not having been to adjudication, I am unsure if I should add more information now, or will I have a further chance to compile information?
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hcandersen
post Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 17:23
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They stand no chance IMO.

The default position is that signs which have definition and effect on-street have NO legal effect off-street, they are just words.

As per cp, if a council wish to make the use of a car park subject to Ts and Cs then these must be displayed, be clear and be underpinned by restrictions in an order. Then and only then do the TMA and General and Appeals regs apply. In this case, if parking at a bay marked with an electric vehicles charging only sign without charging is an offence and subject to a penalty then there must be a b****y clear sign that says so. This is not a guessing game.

And the other glaring issue - which arises with many councils - is that they do not understand the fundamental difference between charging hours and operating hours. The latter represents the period during which provisions of an order might apply, the former is just one of these i.e. when payment must be made.

I read the only sign as meaning that the operating hours of the car park are ** to ** and therefore it follows that what might otherwise be an offence during these hours isn't outside those hours.

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i_was_adaze
post Fri, 24 Jan 2020 - 08:26
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OK, thank you hc. Regulation-wise I have little understanding of off street regulations.

Broadly speaking "I read the only sign as meaning that the operating hours of the car park are ** to ** and therefore it follows that what might otherwise be an offence during these hours isn't outside those hours", was also my thinking

In your opinion, and similarly to what cp said, do you think I would have a better chance re-writing focusing on the lack of ts and cs situated in the car park. And that the only sign that could appear regulatory in anyway only mentions the operating hours etc.

I will have a pop at starting again. Appreciate the pointers.
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LaughingLeaf
post Fri, 24 Jan 2020 - 12:19
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It seems you aren't technically guilty, and should get off - which is fair enough. It's up t the Council to get notices correct if they want to enforce restrictions.

But, as an EV owner, could I please ask you not to park in EV bays, whether signed or not? You might prevent some poor bugger from charging up enough to get home! Legalities aside, it's a matter of courtesy not to inconvenience others.
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i_was_adaze
post Fri, 24 Jan 2020 - 15:31
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QUOTE (LaughingLeaf @ Fri, 24 Jan 2020 - 12:19) *
It seems you aren't technically guilty, and should get off - which is fair enough. It's up t the Council to get notices correct if they want to enforce restrictions.

But, as an EV owner, could I please ask you not to park in EV bays, whether signed or not? You might prevent some poor bugger from charging up enough to get home! Legalities aside, it's a matter of courtesy not to inconvenience others.


Of course! It is very much a case of now this has happened I now know what a charging station looks like! Having done some research, this appears to be the only electric bay in a Wandsworth owned car park, so if they roll out anymore, hopefully they roll out the full and correct signage along with them.
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cp8759
post Sun, 26 Jan 2020 - 21:01
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hcandersen makes a very valid point, in order for the restrictions to be enforceable, the council must amend the car park order as well as update the signage. As the tariff board hasn't been updated, I have my doubts the order has been updated. I've asked for it just in case.


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i_was_adaze
post Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 17:37
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Much appreciated CP. Apologies with the delay I had an exam earlier in the week,and haven't yet penned a new challenge.

I have received the following from my FOI request. It appears that the officer should also have given a 5 minute observation period prior to issuing the PCN. Which they did not (0 mins allowed).

Text received from Wandsworth ------>>>

I refer to your request for information received on 21/01/2020. Please see the information below in response to your request: -

In the document, Parking Enforcement Protocol in Wandsworth, https://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/media/5269/pa..._wandsworth.pdf, there is a table for the contravention codes that a Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) for on-street and off-street parking, can be issued against. In this table it lists the parking contravention code and whether or not an observation period is given prior to a PCN being issued. This is the case for 86 out of the 87 contravention codes listed. For one code, code 71, the cell is left blank. Please can you confirm if an observation period for code 71 is observed or not, prior to issuing a PCN?

For reference, code 14, which is the same contravention, but on-street, rather than off-street, stipulates that, yes, a 5 minute observation period is allowed from the first time the officer observes the vehicle, prior to issuing a PCN.

Although the length of the observation period for contravention code 71 is at the Councils discretion, the text box should contain the following text: 5 minutes is allowed from the time the CEO first observes the vehicle.

I hope this information meets your needs. If you do not understand the information provided or wish to discuss anything further, please feel free to contact me and I, or another member of the team will be able to assist you.

<------

Is it worth including this, or am I still better off sticking with just the Tariff Board angle.
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cp8759
post Sat, 1 Feb 2020 - 13:05
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I'm not sure this helps, what exactly could the CEO have observed if he waited? I don't imagine the traffic order will contain a loading / unloading exemption but even if it did, you've not said you were loading or unloading. The tariff board angle on the other hand is tried and tested.


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i_was_adaze
post Sat, 1 Feb 2020 - 14:50
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I wasn't sure if it did help or not. Potentially from the angle that the PCN was not issued correctly as there was no observation period. I'll stay with your recommendation on the tariff board.
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i_was_adaze
post Sat, 1 Feb 2020 - 15:15
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CP taking your advice, and will be sending the following shortly, unless there are any faux pas?

Good afternoon,

I wish to appeal this PCN on the basis that the contravention did not occur.

The Tariff Board for the car park states that the hours of operation are 9am to 5pm Monday to Saturday. The vehicle was parked at 7pm and a PCN issued at 20.30, several hours after the hours of operation that are stated on the Tariff Board. The Tariff Board and the terms and conditions stated, do not make any mention of electric vehicle charging bays or that additional conditions apply for bays designated as electric vehicle charging bays.

Therefore, if the alleged offence of, "Parked in an electric vehicle charging place during restricted hours without charging", is an offence and subject to a penalty then this should have been stated clearly, and it should also have stated that this applies outside of the stated hours of operation of the car park. Otherwise the Tariff Board in the car park suggests that there are no restrictions to parking after 5pm.

I include two photos showing the Tariff Board and Parking Machine.

Kind Regards
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cp8759
post Sun, 2 Feb 2020 - 00:11
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Slightly revised draft:

-----
Dear London Borough of Wandsworth,

I wish to make a representation again this PCN on the basis that the contravention did not occur.

The Tariff Board for the car park states that the hours of operation are 9am to 5pm Monday to Saturday. The vehicle was parked at 7pm and a PCN issued at 20.30, several hours after the hours of operation that are stated on the Tariff Board. The Tariff Board and the terms and conditions stated, do not make any mention of electric vehicle charging bays or that additional conditions apply for bays designated as electric vehicle charging bays.

Therefore, if the allegation of being "Parked in an electric vehicle charging place during restricted hours without charging" is a contravention and subject to a penalty then this should have been stated clearly, and it should also have been stated that this applies outside of the stated hours of operation of the car park. The Tariff Board in the car park currently suggests that there are no restrictions to parking after 5pm.

I include two photos showing the Tariff Board and Parking Machine.

Yours faithfully


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i_was_adaze
post Sun, 2 Feb 2020 - 10:59
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icon_cheers.gif thanks CP
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cp8759
post Wed, 5 Feb 2020 - 21:14
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For future reference

The Wandsworth (Off-Street Parking Place) (King George's Park) Order 2000: http://bit.ly/2UsfvEM
The Wandsworth (Off-Street Parking Place) (King George's Park) (Amendment No. 1) Order 2009: http://bit.ly/2OsXx1i
The Wandsworth (Off-Street Parking Place) (King George's Park) (Amendment No. 2) Order 2019: http://bit.ly/2UpSceR


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