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Parked wholly or partly in a suspended bay or space -Croydon
semi
post Mon, 11 Nov 2019 - 21:46
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I got a ticket in croydon for Parked wholly or partly in a suspended bay or space, i didn't see the sign, i checked two parking signage boards/posts for parking restrictions before parking. i also checked parking meter but i paid for my parking with RingGo app.

I was not expecting the signage to be posted on fence and it was not visible at all in the dark, i think the parking guy used flash.

let me know your thoughts

pics attached of pcn
pics with timestamps are from ceo
pics without are mine

google street view: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3694087,-...6384!8i8192

This post has been edited by semi: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 - 21:50
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post Mon, 11 Nov 2019 - 21:46
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semi
post Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 16:03
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i would really appreciate help with wording and what evidence to give "representations to the authority".
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hcandersen
post Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 16:43
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What did the suspension sign state?
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semi
post Tue, 14 Jan 2020 - 23:52
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from my memory: parking suspended for 4 or 5 bay to the left, with the arrow pointing to the left.
i don't have clear picture and the council pictures are not clear enough to say what it exactly says
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hcandersen
post Wed, 15 Jan 2020 - 12:44
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Dear Sir,
PCN *********

I refer to the above and NTO dated ***** against which I am making formal representations on the grounds that the contravention did not occur.

The contravention did not occur because the parking restriction was not conveyed as required under the Local Authorities' Traffic Order (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations (LATOR) and is therefore unenforceable.

For your information, I am relying on the CEO's photographic evidence and my own diagram of the layout of the area, the locations of the permanent traffic signs, the council's temporary suspension sign and my car.

Although the wording and therefore extent of the temporary suspension is for some reason not shown in the CEO's photos nor mentioned in the authority's letter dated **** rejecting my initial representations, the authority stated that my car was within the suspended area but presented no evidence in support. However, I do not need to dwell on the point at this stage. The authority will see from the photos and my diagram that my car was parked adjacent to a traffic sign which stated *****. This was one of the only permanent traffic signs within the area of the parking place, the other sign stating exactly the same terms. The authority will further see that the temporary suspension sign, of which there was only one, was situated on railings at the rear of the footway where it was not given the same prominence as the permanent signs. The suspension sign, which I saw on my return to the car, stated, as far as I can remember, that parking was suspended for 4 or 5 car spaces to the left of the sign. This area effectively spanned the complete length of the parking place between the two permanent signs.

I parked where indicated on the diagram and as seen in the photos. I was closest and immediately adjacent to a permanent traffic sign with whose conditions I complied.

The authority's case is that I should have ignored this sign and sought another, in this case temporary sign, which was situated at the rear of the footway. Furthermore, that that sign's restrictions superseded those clearly displayed by the permanent signs. With respect, this is nonsense.

The regulations require that if the authority wanted to suspend all or part of the area delimited by the permanent traffic signs then as a minimum a suspension sign stating the amended restrictions had to be placed at both locations.

In fact the required signs were placed at neither location.

The restriction as regards a suspended area were not conveyed as required and was of no effect, consequently the contravention did not occur.


Would be my take.
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semi
post Fri, 17 Jan 2020 - 12:18
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thanks hcandersen, anyone else want to add their 2 cents to hcandersen take?
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stamfordman
post Fri, 17 Jan 2020 - 12:48
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It's OK but rather long and written more for an appeal to the tribunal should Croydon reject. So it'll do and if they reject you won't have to do much to file an appeal.
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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 17 Jan 2020 - 14:53
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I would add a last paragraph:-

In addition, the Council has not followed the Guidelines noted in the Traffic Signs Manual which recommends a mounting height as follows:-

1.21 The normal mounting height measured to the lower edge of a sign or backing board (or any supplementary plate) is between 900 mm and 1500 mm above the carriageway alongside. The greater height should be used where vehicle spray is likely to soil the sign, or above planted areas. Careful consideration should be given to any proposal to mount signs at a low height, such as on railings or bollards, as there is a risk of drivers not noticing them, especially at night or when they could be obscured by parked vehicles or pedestrians. Where signs are erected above footways, or in areas likely or intended to be used by pedestrians (e.g. pedestrian refuges), a headroom of 2300 mm is recommended, with 2100 mm as an absolute minimum. A clearance of at least 2300 mm should be maintained over a cycle track or shared cycleway / footway.

The suspension sign is therefore totally inadequate, being placed away from the carriageway, obscured and too low down to be effective.

Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 - 14:55
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hcandersen
post Fri, 17 Jan 2020 - 16:04
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It's long in order to set out the underlying legal reasoning as much for the OP's edification as anything else, plus it would need little by way of additions should the authority reject.
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cp8759
post Sat, 18 Jan 2020 - 20:55
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I would go for hcandersen's approach and add Mick's paragraph. It's long but it will make the tribunal appeal easy and it covers all the right points.


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semi
post Mon, 20 Jan 2020 - 22:47
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Hi Guys,
croydon has a limit of 3000 chars, hcanderson and Mad Mick's make it around 3800, can i mention Traffic Signs Manual 1.21 instead of quoting the whole section

In addition, the Council has not followed the Guidelines noted in the Traffic Signs Manual 1.21 which recommends a mounting height and not to be mounted to railings, The suspension sign is therefore totally inadequate, being placed away from the carriageway, obscured and too low down to be effective.

This post has been edited by semi: Mon, 20 Jan 2020 - 22:48
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hcandersen
post Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 10:38
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In addition, the Council has not followed the Guidelines noted in the Traffic Signs Manual 1.21 which recommends a mounting height and not to be mounted to railings, The suspension sign is therefore totally inadequate, being placed away from the carriageway, obscured and too low down to be effective.

As regards the weight of your arguments, to be honest this is a waste of effort. You have your arguments.
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semi
post Sat, 25 Jan 2020 - 13:47
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ah sucks! rolleyes.gif
it got rejected
all rejection letters added here

https://imgur.com/a/QMd52Yd
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stamfordman
post Sat, 25 Jan 2020 - 18:35
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It's a hopeless rejection. Someone needs to go sit on the naughty step. They say that can only place signs where practical to do so - so what about on the parking sign for the bay, like nearly all suspensions are done?

Discount is gone now anyway. All you need to do is register the appeal with the tribunal. You need to decide whether to attend in person, which is recommended. You don't need to upload your evidence when you register the appeal - that can come later.

My bet - the council will pull out.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 - 18:47
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semi
post Mon, 27 Jan 2020 - 13:00
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do i need to provide "details of appeal"? add more info?

section 6: Details of Appeal
"the adjudicator will consider the representation you made to the enforcement authority, but if you wish you an restate your case or add more information here."

i want to add the fact it was on the railing and it wasn't lit, i parked at night time and no way i could've seen it unless i went around with a torch
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Incandescent
post Mon, 27 Jan 2020 - 21:27
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QUOTE (semi @ Mon, 27 Jan 2020 - 13:00) *
do i need to provide "details of appeal"? add more info?

section 6: Details of Appeal
"the adjudicator will consider the representation you made to the enforcement authority, but if you wish you an restate your case or add more information here."

i want to add the fact it was on the railing and it wasn't lit, i parked at night time and no way i could've seen it unless i went around with a torch

At adjudication, you must use all your ammunition as there is no further appeal. I would suggest that you state that whilst you rely on your original representations, you would like to point out that.......blah, blah. At adjudication it is fair to respond to their response refusing your reps, to point out is inconsistencies and untruths, (if any).

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Mon, 27 Jan 2020 - 21:27
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cp8759
post Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 22:35
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For now just register the appeal and say there's further evidence to follow, it's far from certain that the council would contest this.


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nimoranthu
post Fri, 7 Feb 2020 - 09:04
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 30 Jan 2020 - 22:35) *
For now just register the appeal and say there's further evidence to follow, it's far from certain that the council would contest this.


I got the same ticket on the same day here and had my informal appeal rejected by the software.

Unfortunately, I sh*t the bed with the 28 days since NTO and realised last night that my deadline was Wednesday 5th to respond. After seeing the rejection of the Formal Appeal on this thread, I paid up as I don't have the fight in me at the moment to go any further with the financial penalty looming over my head.

That said, if at any point OP here wants to start sending letters to the council and raise their concerns about this ridiculous appeals process, I'll gladly join.

It's worth noting that 1 Edridge Road houses a lot of Croydon's Mental Health Services and it's a fair assumption that quite a few of those parking along this particular stretch of road are 'Service Users' as the council likes to call them, including myself and my partner.

I probably don't have to explain the added implication of a faulty PCN or a rigged appeals process on someone such as myself, but I probably should do so formally to the Council.
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semi
post Sun, 23 Feb 2020 - 22:57
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allo, so the council is contesting it and have submitted evidence. its a hefty 20 page evidence . let me know how can i progress?
my hearing is on the 5th of march.

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stamfordman
post Sun, 23 Feb 2020 - 23:19
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The key part is the evidence summary, usually a 2-3 page part at the front of the pack. Start by posting that.
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semi
post Mon, 24 Feb 2020 - 22:04
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Hi,

i've added the first three pages - https://imgur.com/a/2zuiKWX

note that i did not see the suspension as it was dark, if the CEO didn't use flash he wouldn't have seen the sign either. also i looked at the permanent signs expecting a suspension notice to be placed there as i've seen other suspension notices, and no suspension sign on the parking meter.

all help is appreciated.
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