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Incorrect SJP issued, after after posting,phoning and emailing in S172, Incorrect SJP issued, after after posting,phoning and emailing in S172
MessiBarca
post Mon, 7 May 2018 - 20:39
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Hi guys

I really need your help. I've received a SJPN dated 20/04/2018. I need to respond to them by 11/05/2018 which doesn't leave me much time

I was the named driver of a vehicle that was caught speeding by a "home office type approved device" on a dual carriage way in Lancashire on 06/08/2017 travelling at 61 on a 50mph zone.

The alleged speeding offence occurred on 6th August 2017 - over 6 months ago? Is this of any relevance in my case as I have read mixed reviews on this in the last couple of hours?!

Anyway the following took place

• A S172/NIP was sent to the registered keeper of the vehicle (my mother) on 11th August 2017.

• This was followed by a reminder letter to my mother which arrived on 4/09/2017 but the actual latter was dated for the day before 03/09/17, this letter requested details of the driver at the time of the alleged offence.

• On 11/09/ 2017, I the registered keeper’s son, PHONED the Lancashire CPU advising that the original S172 had already been returned by post. They stated they had not been received the original and asked I send in the reminder. I asked whether this reminder S172 reminder could be sent by email as well to avoid any mailing issues; they stated it would need to be a document via post.

This time I took a photo of the 03/09/2017 S172 reminder before posting back (which nominated me, the son as the driver). Don't have a photo of the original s172 sent to my mother

•I PHONED the Lancashire CPU again on 26/09/2017 asking if they had received and explained this nomination had already been posted by my mother to them. They said it hadn't yet been received to so I took the email address of the lady officer I was speaking with and said to email it her and she said she would make a note on the system of this, and would note that I had phoned in to check and also of my admission I was the driver and the reminder S172 has still hasn't been received by them

• On 27/11/ 2017, the day after my phone call, they finally received the completed S172 reminder nominating me (the son) as the driver and on the same date a new S172/NIP was sent to me dated 27/09/17

•This S172/NIP was completed by me and posted on 10/10/17.

• On 19/10/ 2017 I received a reminder letter stating that no reply to the previous S172 and that a response is required within 7 days and to advise the department immediately if you have already responded - however the first S172 in my name had already been posted to them by this date on 10/10/17

•on 30/10/17 I emailed the CPU lady officer a copy of this original s172 for their information and explained I had posted this very same document already on 10/10/17

• the next day 31/10/2017, the CPU lady officer acknowledged (by an email reply) that the copy and my admission of the completed reminder but advised that this could NOT be accepted by email and that I needed to return the reminder S172 now as well

•on 01/11/2017 - reminder s172 completed and posted back.

• Just to be sure they received the s172, I emailed again on 09/11/17 enquiring whether if this had been received but was told it hadn't been received again! They asked when it had been posted and if anything else was inside the envelope.

• I waited a few days and emailed again on 15/11/ 2017 to check asking for an update, explained nothing was in the envelope but did NOT receive any reply of any sorts from the CPU lady officer

*regrettably I didn't send the s172 documents back with special or signed for delivery - from what I can recollect it was a second class stamp and I think I got proof of postage but I can't find them as it's been over 6 months *

• After this I received the SJPN in the post dated 20/04/18 stating ONE CHARGE " 1. Fail to give information relating to the ID of the driver / rider of a vehicle when required" - NO OTHER charges are listed

Please advice on how best to deal with this as the initial charge in my opinion is incorrect? It should be for speeding only.

If it goes to court am I likely to win? What are the additional charges for going to court? And how much more will it be if I lose? I'm not even sure if I'll be able to get the time off to attend a day in court? Is it a full day thing? Do we have any say on the day it occurs?

If I did plead guilty to this failing to provide ID charge on the SJPN, what's the best and worst outcome? How many points and financially how much will I get penalised approximately? As I only work part time.

I was really annoyed at receiving the SJPN especially considering the number of emails I sent so I managed to phone the CPU and get the name of the of the CPU manager. I googled her name and found the email address. I put in a written lengthy complaint explaining the above, that it was a failure on their part in receiving the posted S172s and their failure to acknowledge my S172 emails containing this my admission as an attachment was no fault of my own. I concluded the email with "With the above proofs in mind, can you cancel the incorrect single justice procedure notice with immediate effect? My admissions and emails from September to November 2017 clearly absolve me of the 'failing to provide information of the ID of the driver' charge putforth against me, when it is clearly present as an email attachment. Your failure to acknowledge my S172 admission letter and actually respond to my 15/11/2017 email with no reply of any sort is no fault of my own.

Section 5 of the 'Penalty notices – fixed penalty notices and penalty notices for disorder' from the Magistrates Sentencing Council states "where a penalty notice could not be offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender, the starting point should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be imposed."

With the above proofs in mind, I would therefore ask you cancel the incorrect single justice procedure notice with immediate effect and given my s172 admission letter and ask the fine be given at the statutory Fixed Penalty Notice level of £100, as should have originally occurred.
I look forward to hearing from you promptly"

The CPU manager replied stating the charge will stand and the CPU are not at fault and it was my fault?! I quote "My conclusion is that it is due to your failure to provide the information in accordance with the reasonable instructions outlined on the S172 request and within the statutory timescales, which has resulted in the case proceeding to the issue of the SJP and as such, putting the Police to cost. For the above reason, the SJP notice will not be cancelled and will proceed to a court hearing. Please clearly respond to the SJP notice indicating your plea to the offence charged.

Alternatively, if you wish to formally admit to the speeding offence; the Magistrates’ can, in certain circumstances, amend the charge to that of speeding, however they will require this request in writing. However, regardless of how this case is dealt with, the Police will be making an application for a costs award at the conclusion of your case as there has been no error on their part."

I've responded asking her to clarify a few points in her email but I do not have the luxury of time to wait for a response as I need to submit the form back to them by 10/05/18 at the VERY LATEST so it reaches there on day 21 on 11/05/18.

Any help or advice would be much appreciated

This post has been edited by MessiBarca: Wed, 9 May 2018 - 09:05
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post Mon, 7 May 2018 - 20:39
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southpaw82
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 19:31
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QUOTE (MessiBarca @ Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 20:14) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 19:19) *
The excess is 3 points but the fine will be income related (1/3 of weekly relevant earnings for a guilty plea). If they agree to sentence at a FP equivalent then only the fine could be reduced, but every little helps.


Hi JLC, I don’t follow, I’ll have to pay the £30 surcharge regardless? Although I’m not clear why if I’m going to be offered a plea bargain (especially as I wasn’t really at fault)?


The surcharge is mandatory, by law.

QUOTE
Again if I’m to agree on a plea bargain why would I receive a fine that is ‘income related’ I thought a plea bargain would mean a direct swap so I would expect to receive 3 points and £100 fine - nothing more as per the original COFP I should have been offered?


Sentencing is a matter for the court, not the prosecution. You’re doing a deal with the prosecution, not the court.

QUOTE
If they agree to sentence at the fixed penalty level - why is it that only the £100 fine can be reduced? And by how much if any?

The court has a discretion in relation to the fine and costs, not the surcharge. How much has already been answered.


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Jlc
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 19:52
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QUOTE (MessiBarca @ Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 20:14) *
I thought a plea bargain would mean a direct swap so I would expect to receive 3 points and £100 fine

It's not a swap to a fixed penalty. It's the dropping of the s172 offence in exchange for the speeding fine.

The speeding fine is sentenced using normal court guidelines, i.e. 1/3 income, £85 costs and £30 surcharge. (Or they may be inclined to sentence at a fixed penalty equivalent at their discretion - you would have normally received such a fixed penalty offer so you shouldn't be disadvantaged)

But bear in mind a s172 conviction is far higher...


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

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andy_foster
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 20:18
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 20:52) *
It's not a swap to a fixed penalty. It's the dropping of the s172 offence in exchange for the speeding offence.

The speeding offence is sentenced using normal court guidelines, i.e. 1/3 income, £85 costs and £30 surcharge. (Or they may be inclined to sentence at a fixed penalty equivalent at their discretion - you would have normally received such a fixed penalty offer so you shouldn't be disadvantaged)

But bear in mind a s172 conviction is far higher...


FTFY


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Jlc
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 20:41
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Thanks. ninja.gif


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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MessiBarca
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 20:49
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 20:52) *
QUOTE (MessiBarca @ Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 20:14) *
I thought a plea bargain would mean a direct swap so I would expect to receive 3 points and £100 fine

It's not a swap to a fixed penalty. It's the dropping of the s172 offence in exchange for the speeding fine.

The speeding fine is sentenced using normal court guidelines, i.e. 1/3 income, £85 costs and £30 surcharge. (Or they may be inclined to sentence at a fixed penalty equivalent at their discretion - you would have normally received such a fixed penalty offer so you shouldn't be disadvantaged)

But bear in mind a s172 conviction is far higher...


“Sentencing is a matter for the court, not the prosecution. You’re doing a deal with the prosecution, not the court.” With that in mind then why would the speeding offence be sentenced using the court guidelines by the “prosecution”??

One would presume the prosecution would fine at their own COFP £100 fine and 3 points as this is not being sentenced in ‘court’ yet so the 1/3 income, £85 costs and £30 surcharge wouldn’t be applicable at this preliminary stage?
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southpaw82
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 20:50
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QUOTE (MessiBarca @ Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 21:49) *
“Sentencing is a matter for the court, not the prosecution. You’re doing a deal with the prosecution, not the court.” With that in mind then why would the speeding offence be sentenced using the court guidelines by the “prosecution”??

One would presume the prosecution would fine at their own COFP £100 fine and 3 points as this is not being sentenced in ‘court’ yet so the 1/3 income, £85 costs and £30 surcharge wouldn’t be applicable at this preliminary stage?

You’re going to court though. The prosecution can’t fine anyone.


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MessiBarca
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 21:22
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 21:50) *
QUOTE (MessiBarca @ Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 21:49) *
“Sentencing is a matter for the court, not the prosecution. You’re doing a deal with the prosecution, not the court.” With that in mind then why would the speeding offence be sentenced using the court guidelines by the “prosecution”??

One would presume the prosecution would fine at their own COFP £100 fine and 3 points as this is not being sentenced in ‘court’ yet so the 1/3 income, £85 costs and £30 surcharge wouldn’t be applicable at this preliminary stage?

You’re going to court though. The prosecution can’t fine anyone.


So either way I will need a MC100/ “statement of means” form completed and take it with me?

And best case scenario with plea deal is £130 fine (£100 fine + £30 surcharge) with 3 points and worse case is (£100 fine + £30 surcharge + £85 + 1/3 of monthly wage?) is this latter worse case part correct ?
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The Rookie
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 21:25
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No worse case is the 1/3 + surcharge + costs, the £100 wouldn’t be added on, not sure why you think it would?


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Jlc
post Tue, 26 Jun 2018 - 21:50
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It's weekly not monthly earnings. (Post deductions)

Best case could be £70 fine + £30 surcharge and no costs order.


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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MessiBarca
post Wed, 27 Jun 2018 - 23:45
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Hi guys

So as promised here is what happened It’s a long read but I feel it needs to be said...

I was made to wait 3 hours before being seen. The waiting room had no AC, no fans and was roasting given the sun and the tinted black glass windows throughout - absolutely abysmal and a very dated court in a small moorish town.

I walked in 3 hours later and I was asked for my name details etc and what I was pleading and why and I said the charge is wrong so not guilty.

The clerk was a really nasty piece of work and looked as much, she said “what do you mean it’s wrong, you wouldn’t be here if the charge was wrong.” At that point, I thought she was the prosecution based on her question.

Anyway I tried to explain I did supply the information on 3 different occasions but she just wouldn’t let me finish and kept interrupting me as I spoke and telling me when I could and couldn’t speak. This was throughout the ordeal. I tried to explain I made the necessary phone calls and email follow ups with a submission to make sure the NIP had been received but she just wouldn’t let me finish. She kept reiterating it was my responsibility to make sure the paper copy reached the CPU and I had made to many assumptions throughout this process and as a paper copy didn’t reach them as per the CPU request this was my fault and hence the charges?! She was incredibly arrogant, haughty and clearly the power had got to her head.

The bench looked on at first but finally seemed to have got the gist of what had occurred as we went to and fro interrupting each other to an extent and I finally managed to get across what I was saying. I had no choice but to interrupt as the clerk was manipulating it to the prosecution favour.

One would assume she would be impartial but she was anything but, after about 5 minutes, finally she said there was an offer of an exchange of charges and whether I would plead guilty to speeding so I said yes - she said “don’t you mean guilty”. She and the bench asked if I had anything to say about the speeding charge itself and why I was speeding, I said to the panel it was an oversight on my part, an accident as I didn’t notice the sign.

She went on said there would be other associated costs of £85 for the CPU blah blah.

After she’s d finished, I asked why these charges were to be added given the evidence I had provided and whether I could be charged at the fixed penalty level, but she/clerk was not listening to any of it and my request rubbed her further up the wrong way, she was acting like I had no right to speak at all. She was undoubtedly siding with the prosecution and was trying her best to manipulate and overlook the facts of the case into the prosecutions advantage.

I was taken aback as to why she, as the clerk/legal advisor was fighting a case against me as if he she is the prosecutor. By comparison, the prosecution said very little and only when asked he confirmed that their records stated I had sent in emails and a copy and phoned/ emailed to check they had been received. He spoke a line or two to confirm and that was it

Between mine and the clerks interruptions the chap from the bench finally said I think I’ve understood what’s gone on and I’m sure you’ll be satisfied with what I have to say. So he said the bench had agreed to charge £100 and 3 points. After this, the clerk asked for my statement form asked my job title and income.

On leaving, I was baffled by the shear rudeness and ill manners of the clerk and how she can be allowed to side with the prosecution without question

I guess it’s a good result but I waited 3 painful hours for a 10 minute hearing in the worst waiting room pushing 35 degrees (it was a glass house with black windows) plus have spent a couple of whole day reading, thinking about it, writing and planning a defence/printing off emails.

They didn’t provide me with anything to take home to confirm the above sentence/plea deal which I though was odd. I guess this will come in the post??

Anyway - Thank you all for your help you really do an amazing job with some amazing advice!! God bless


QUOTE (MessiBarca @ Thu, 28 Jun 2018 - 00:41) *
They didn’t provide me with anything to take home to confirm the above sentence/plea deal which I though was odd. I guess this will come in the post??

Anyway - Thank you all for your help you really do an amazing job with some amazing advice!! God bless



Is that the norm?? When will I receive the fine? They were quiet firm in explaining it needed to be paid within 28!days or it was a “criminal offence”? And are the 3 points to be back dated to the offence date in August 2017?? And is there anyway of checking this??

Finally, I really am contemplating putting in an official complaint about the clerk, I was really unimpressed with her absolute bias and impartiality. Where can I get her name from and who can I complain too?
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Irksome
post Thu, 28 Jun 2018 - 10:03
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I'd suggest using Resolver to make the complaint. You shouldn't need the clerks name, as they will be able to work out which clerk it is from the court number and the date / time.

https://www.resolver.co.uk/hmcts-complaints


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PePiPoo will likely close in October due to issues beyond the control of any contributor to this forum.

You are encouraged to seek advice at https://www.ftla.uk/speeding-and-other-criminal-offences/ where the vast majority of the experts here have moved over to already.
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Jlc
post Thu, 28 Jun 2018 - 10:10
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QUOTE (MessiBarca @ Thu, 28 Jun 2018 - 00:45) *
When will I receive the fine? They were quiet firm in explaining it needed to be paid within 28!days or it was a “criminal offence”? And are the 3 points to be back dated to the offence date in August 2017?? And is there anyway of checking this??

Unfortunately courts don't have much customer service as they are generally dealing with 'criminals'. Yes, it's a criminal offence albeit a non-reportable one.

The points are effective from the date of the offence in regards to totting. You need to check what you need to tell your insurer.

The court should write but if you haven't heard anything after a week contact them to pay.

Ultimately, it was the 'right' result but a little painful. But could have been worse at a full trial.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 - 10:10


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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NewJudge
post Thu, 28 Jun 2018 - 10:35
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In many areas before you left the court you would have been given details of how to pay your fine and costs. You should have been given an "account number" together with details of the payment options. Ridiculously courts no longer accept payments for fines on the day. In those circumstances you would not normally receive anything in the post. If you were not given those details then they may send you them in the post. If you don't receive anything within about two weeks contact the court because if you don't pay as directed the matter will quickly end up with the bailiffs who will add their charges on. You can check your driving record for points etc. online here:

https://www.gov.uk/view-driving-licence

You should allow a couple of weeks for the info the reach the DVLA.

Your experience with the court's Legal Advisor is very disappointing. Making a complaint about her treatment of you may make you feel good. The "Clerk to the Justices" of the area is the person to contact (details should be available online). However it's unlikely to produce much in the way of results either for you or her. You've already spent far too much of your time on this and my view is that life's too short (and it's too hot!). biggrin.gif Best to put it behind you and move on.

This post has been edited by NewJudge: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 - 10:38
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Logician
post Thu, 28 Jun 2018 - 13:17
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Unfortunately some legal advisors do act as though they were part of the prosecution process, I should content yourself with the thought that actually the bench gave her a fairly big snub by determining to sentence you at the fixed penalty rate despite her best efforts, and very likely complaints have or will be made about her approach, if not in this, then in other cases, by magistrates and defence solicitors. These are likely to be far more effective than a complaint from you, because at the end of the day, you got the best result you could in this case.


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The Rookie
post Thu, 28 Jun 2018 - 13:19
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Its also possible you were raising the wrong part of your defence at the wrong time and as such she would have been right to stop you. For example you can't give your own witness evidence while questioning the prosecution evidence (which it sort of sounds like you were doing) that comes after half time.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
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Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
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notmeatloaf
post Thu, 28 Jun 2018 - 14:32
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I would tend to side with Simon. Magistrates courts are very formulaic and you are only meant to say certain things at certain times.

Unfortunately some within the system, be it magistrates, clerks or solicitors, forget that just because this is obvious to them it isn't for someone for whom it may be the first time they have been in court.

It is by no means specific to courts, I see the same thing in hospitals every day.

Personally I would side with NewJudge, if we got rid of all the officious people in HMCTS then it would be down to skeleton staff! But your choice of course.
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