Winning bet or losing bet?, Does an own goal count as a goal? Options

[Figaro]

Hello all, here's one that could see a healthy debate. I very rarely gamble, generally just the grand national and the odd big sporting event and today I placed a bet on the World Cup Final played this afternoon.

France v Croatia - #WhatOddsPaddy - Featured
1st goal scored to be a header 16/5

For those who don't know the first goal was an own goal, headed in. Paddy Power have decided not to pay out.

I'm in the online chat with them now, they have so far acknowledged that the correct score was 4-2 (according to their betting markets) so the own goal is at least acknowledged as a goal for certain markets (bets).

I think the rule they are trying to rely on is as follows...

Own goals do not count towards any player or team’s goal tallies (unless otherwise stated). By way of further explanation, if a player who plays for Team A scores an own goal while playing against Team B, neither he nor Team A will be deemed to have increased their goal tally (although Team B’s goal tally will be deemed to have increased by one).

My argument here is that 'as otherwise stated', Team B's tally is increased by one, the goal is acknowledged and as it was headed in, i'm a winner. The bet I made had nothing to do with which team or which player, hence the exclusion doesn't apply.

I've asked for exactly which rule they are relying on to refuse my bet but in the meanwhile does anyone want to chip in with any opinions?

SO far...

Sun, Jul 15, 19:58:13 Stephanie: I had a look into the bet for you, and I'm afraid I have to confirm it has actually been settled correctly Jonathan. Unfortunately If the first goal is an own goal it does not count as a goal for settlement purposes.
Sun, Jul 15, 19:58:30 You: Own goals do not count towards any player or team’s goal tallies (unless otherwise stated). By way of further explanation, if a player who plays for Team A scores an own goal while playing against Team B, neither he nor Team A will be deemed to have increased their goal tally (although Team B’s goal tally will be deemed to have increased by one).
Sun, Jul 15, 19:59:13 You: unless otherwise stated, and it clearly states below that Team B's goal will be deemed to have increased by one.
Sun, Jul 15, 19:59:50 You: so France's goal tally was increased by one, hence the first goal was scored and tallied.
Sun, Jul 15, 20:0:17 You: the bet wasn't about a team or a player, it was about how it was scored.
Sun, Jul 15, 20:0:49 You: can i ask you what the correct score of the match was?
Sun, Jul 15, 20:3:47 Stephanie: The final score was of France 4-2 Croatia.
Sun, Jul 15, 20:5:48 You: Great, so the own goal is acknowledged as a goal. and it was a header, so my bet wins. The rules clearly state as such. In the example to make it clearer, you even spell it out. Team B (France) get a goal, the first goal, and it was a header.
Sun, Jul 15, 20:7:29 You: I'm failing to understand where in your terms and conditions that i lose? Can you expend on it please?
Sun, Jul 15, 20:7:36 You: sorry, expand?
Sun, Jul 15, 20:14:23 Stephanie: An own goal does count for a team's goal, yes however it does not count for this market unfortunately.
Sun, Jul 15, 20:15:21 You: That's not a good enough answer i'm afraid, show me the specific rule that says it doesn't count for this market?
Sun, Jul 15, 20:25:2 Stephanie: Own goals do not count towards any player or team’s goal tallies. Therefore technically no player scored the header.
Sun, Jul 15, 20:27:35 You: And where in my bet does it state a player has to score it (even technically). You've acknowledged the goal was scored and you've just said it was indeed headed in.
Sun, Jul 15, 20:28:10 You: The bet was as follows... "1st goal scored to be a header"

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[666]

I tend to agree with you, but you're forgetting Rule 1 (The bookie always wins).

Can we ask how much money is involved?

This post has been edited by 666: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 19:40

[big_mac]

follow the complaints procedure?

https://support.paddypower.com/app/answers/...l/a_id/1255/p/6

(It seems to be normal to not count own goals for this market. SkyBet are having similar problems on twitter, but they explicitly state it in their t&cs)

This post has been edited by big_mac: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 19:51

[Figaro]

the rest...


Sun, Jul 15, 20:28:10 You: The bet was as follows... "1st goal scored to be a header"
Sun, Jul 15, 20:31:21 You: And in your rules it states that Team B will get a goal tally, hence the first goal has been scored and as it was headed in my bet is a win.
Sun, Jul 15, 20:32:20 Stephanie: I can understand where you're coming from Jonathan, however as I said this own goal heade r doe snot count for this market since its a WhatOddsPaddy market bet. Own goals do not count towards any player or team’s goal tallies (unless otherwise stated). By way of further explanation, if a player who plays for Team A scores an own goal while playing against Team B, neither he nor Team A will be deemed to have increased their goal tally (although Team B’s goal tally will be deemed to have increased by one).
Sun, Jul 15, 20:32:46 Stephanie: If you wish to dispute this further, I will gladly ask for a call back and someone can get in touch with you about this.
Sun, Jul 15, 20:34:38 You: You appear not to understand where i'm coming from as you have just copied and pasted the rule that I pasted at the beginning of this conversation. My bet wasn't anything to do with a team or a player, it was simply the 'first goal' and as Team B, according to your rules, get a goal tally awarded and the goal is acknowledged, and it was headed in, my bet is a win bet.
Sun, Jul 15, 20:35:9 You: If i get a call back, when will this be?
Sun, Jul 15, 20:35:58 Stephanie: Unfortunately I do not have a time frame for this, but please bear in mind that it goes in an escalation queue that needs to be followed.
Sun, Jul 15, 20:38:48 You: Can i ask if the call would likely be today or tomorrow or sometime next week or in the next month? Can you give me an indication?
Sun, Jul 15, 20:40:21 Stephanie: As I advised, unfortunately I do not have a time frame but it would definitely not be today unfortunately. I completely understand where you're coming from Jonathan, but unfortunately this is out of my hands at this point.
Sun, Jul 15, 20:40:53 You: Yes please then, a call back...
Sun, Jul 15, 20:41:2 You: 07xxxxxxxxxx
Sun, Jul 15, 20:41:40 Stephanie: Thank you for confirming your contact number. Is there anything else I can help you with?
Sun, Jul 15, 20:42:45 You: no

I knew someone would ask about the money, it's not about the money really. It's not an earth shattering amount for sure, just a £5 stake. Some might say move on but this has really touched a raw nerve with me.

follow the complaints procedure?

https://support.paddypower.com/app/answers/...l/a_id/1255/p/6

(It seems to be normal to not count own goals for this market. SkyBet are having similar problems on twitter, but they explicitly state it in their t&cs)

I think the call back they have promised me will be part of the escalation procedure and ultimately an ADR type decision.

I'll see how much time it takes up and whether or not they manage to grind me down enough.

If more learned people here deem it a guaranteed winner i'd consider going straight to online small claims for the crack?

[andy_foster]

Just in case anyone else has the same thought that I did, whilst gambling debts have historically been non-justiciable, s. 335 of the Gambling Act 2005 provides that "The fact that a contract relates to gambling shall not prevent its enforcement."

[cp8759]

I would make a formal complaint, if they don't pay up, letter before action, if they still don't pay up, small claims via money claim online.

[henrik777]

This is the very reason anyone who gambles will tell you not to place a bet on 0-0 as the odds on no goalscorer are usually very similar but the game could end up with a goal(or more) and no goalscorer wins if the goal(s) are own goals.

Of course, as i recall, the goalscorer market specifically states own goals do not count.

It could well be you'd win an argument using CRA2015 but legalities are never certain

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/1...tion/69/enacted


69Contract terms that may have different meanings
(1)If a term in a consumer contract, or a consumer notice, could have different meanings, the meaning that is most favourable to the consumer is to prevail.

[Jump in jim]

When you put the bet on the terms were and remain "Own goals do not count towards any player or team’s goal tallies (unless otherwise stated). "

Is it stated anywhere "otherwise"?

So the own goal doesn't seem to count for the bet as there is no "otherwise"...unless you find one of course.

[The Rookie]

He’s not counting it towards a team or players tally though is he, the nature of his bet has nothing to do with a player or teams tally.

[Figaro]

When you put the bet on the terms were and remain "Own goals do not count towards any player or team’s goal tallies (unless otherwise stated). "

Is it stated anywhere "otherwise"?

So the own goal doesn't seem to count for the bet as there is no "otherwise"...unless you find one of course.

In my opinion the otherwise is stated directly after the initial statement by way of further explanation. This next quote is from their terms...

Own goals do not count towards any player or team’s goal tallies (unless otherwise stated). By way of further explanation, if a player who plays for Team A scores an own goal while playing against Team B, neither he nor Team A will be deemed to have increased their goal tally (although Team B’s goal tally will be deemed to have increased by one).

I also am of the opinion that my bet was not connected with a particular team or player. This is the crux of my argument really. They have acknowledged in my chat that the goal 'counted' as a goal for certain bets. Bingo!

[DancingDad]

……... They have acknowledged in my chat that the goal 'counted' as a goal for certain bets. Bingo!

Sounds promising but still reliant on them doing the right thing and not interpreting T&Cs to suit themselves.

You can understand the underlying behind them trying to specify which goals count and which don't.
After all, if the bet had been for France to score first, an own goal from Croatia may be tallied to France but France did not score it.

But cannot see why it matters who scored if the bet was simply on if the goal was a header.
Can't help with anything positive but wish you well.

[Figaro]

Yes DD I totally agree and see the logic and sense behind the definitions for a team or a player. I wonder how it will turn out when they call. I’ll keep the thread updated.

Yes DD I totally agree and see the logic and sense behind the definitions for a team or a player. I wonder how it will turn out when they call. I’ll keep the thread updated.

[glasgow_bhoy]

Devils advocate.

I've benefited from the own goal rule in the past. I didn't know it at the time, so was amazed to have won (just over £200 off £5). A lot of people I subsequently told seemed to already know about it, so is it common knowledge?

If the bet was placed online, did you have access to their T&C's before placing the bet?

[The Rookie]

If the bet was placed online, did you have access to their T&C's before placing the bet?

I’m not sure how it’s rekevant when by any normal reading they don’t rule out his claim he won the bet.

[Figaro]

If the bet was placed online, did you have access to their T&C's before placing the bet?

Yes they were and are available all the time. I fell foul of another ‘silly’ rule about not qualifying for a free bet with Coral as I used PayPal to credit my account when setting up an account. Once bitten twice shy and I actually looked at the rules after I had placed my bet but before the match. I have to admit that as soon as the own goal went in I was sure they would try not to pay me but I was equally sure that I had a good argument against them.

Quite simply the first goal was a header and the rules only stipulate that a player or team won’t be credited with an own goal.

[ford poplar]

You still have not mentiioned how much is at stake?

[Harnes]

You still have not mentiioned how much is at stake?

£5 STAKE AT 16/5

"1st goal scored to be a header 16/5"

" It's not an earth shattering amount for sure, just a £5 stake."

[notmeatloaf]

If you want the money just go on Twitter (or borrow someone's) and make a fuss on there. They spend silly money on advertising, they will happily pay £16 to shut you up.

[Unzippy]

You still have not mentiioned how much is at stake?

"I knew someone would ask about the money, it's not about the money really. It's not an earth shattering amount for sure, just a £5 stake. Some might say move on but this has really touched a raw nerve with me."

[Figaro]

Ok, I had a reply from PP about the bet.

Thank you for contacting Paddy Power Customer Support.

Firstly we would like to apologize for the delay in response to your query.

In regards to your query we can confirm the bet receipt in question is 100% settled correctly in accordance with our soccer rules which can be found in the help centre below.

First/Last goalscorer
Own goals do not count for settlement of first/last goalscorer bets.

However, as a goodwill gesture for the delay in responding to your query I would be happy to refund your stake as a free bet.

If you wish to avail of this please call us or go onto a live chat and quote incident reference xxx to the agent and they can apply the £5 Free bet.

If you have any further queries please visit our Help Centre

Kind Regards,
Escalation Management Team
Paddy Power Customer Service

I was thinking of replying with the following email and will welcome any critique...

Hello xxx

I called again this evening to further discuss my dispute to the bet you commented on below.

I still maintain I am right, you maintain the bet was settled correctly.

I will take this all the way to small claims court if necessary, more for the principal of the matter and the experience of doing it rather than the overall economic benefit as we're not talking about lots of money!

You will lose in court for the simple reason that your #whatoddspaddy rules do not exclude own goals counting for the specific bet I placed. To remind you, my bet was simply for the 'first goal scored'. It was not connected with a specific team or a player. I did not place a bet on first / last goalscorer. If you feel it is ok to look at rules from elsewhere in the main soccer rules, may I bring your attention to the following...

Number of corners / Number of goals / Bookings
Bets on number of goals include own goals.

If you still disagree with me please let me know when we have fully exhausted all available dispute resolution steps and advise on the next level of escalation so that we can start to get independent bodies involved.

Thanks

xxx

To remind everyone, the #whatoddspaddy rules section is as follows...

#WhatOddsPaddy Football Rules
The rules in this sub-section apply specifically to the settlement of any soccer bets which are placed via #whatoddspaddy (“**”). All other settlement rules which are included in this “Soccer Rules" section or elsewhere on this website (including in Paddy Power’s Rules and Regulations) will also apply to the settlement of ** bets unless they contradict, or conflict with, those included in this sub-section (in which case, the rules in this sub-section shall take precedence).
Own goals do not count towards any player or team’s goal tallies (unless otherwise stated). By way of further explanation, if a player who plays for Team A scores an own goal while playing against Team B, neither he nor Team A will be deemed to have increased their goal tally (although Team B’s goal tally will be deemed to have increased by one).