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ParkingEye PCN alleging breach of parking conditions at Beehive Centre, Cambridge
David J 3
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 11:24
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Hello,

I have received a parking charge notice from ParkingEye Limited in respect of an alleged breach of parking conditions at the Beehive Centre retail park in Cambridge by the driver of a vehicle of which I am the registered keeper.

The notice is dated 17 days after the alleged overstay and I received it 23 days after.

I attach redacted copies of both sides of the notice.

In their notice ParkingEye

• do not say why they are writing to me
(I am the registered keeper, but they do not mention this.)

• do not say what term contained in the "terms and conditions associated with this car park by which those who park in the car park agree to be bound" the driver is alleged to have breached
(Judging by the time-stamped arrival and departure photos one can infer that they believe there was an overstay, but they do not actually say so.)

• say the parking charge is "now payable to ParkingEye Ltd (as the Creditor) by the driver"
(I have no reason to believe that they know who the driver was.)

• say that if I was not the driver then I "should" tell them the driver's "name and current postal address" and that I should also pass the notice on to them
(Neither in this context nor in any other context do they refer to any legislation. They do not say that I "must" or that I am legally or contractually bound to do anything. Many people say other people "should" do many things.)

Should I ignore this?

I will be grateful for any advice.

Many thanks in advance,
David

This post has been edited by David J 3: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 11:30
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post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 11:24
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 12:54
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Of course you dont ignore! Thats NOT the way! Not for 6 years!

Appeal AS KEEPER to PE stating they are unable to claim against you as they have failed to meet the requiremetns of POFA. Cancel. If you dont, and force me to go POPLA then when THEY tell you to cancel I will charge you my time spent on the appeals at £19 an hour. THis is not an offer of a contract, but a reasonable contribution towards teh definable damages you have caused me.
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Jlc
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 13:17
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QUOTE (David J 3 @ Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 12:24) *
Should I ignore this?

If you want a court claim against you...

Golden ticket this one:

QUOTE
Dear Poke in the Eye,

I have just received your Parking Charge Notice *** for vehicle *******.

You have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to give notice of keeper liability as prescribed by section 9 (2) (f) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

I do not expect to hear from you again, or from any debt collectors, except to confirm that no further action will be taken on this matter and my personal details have been removed from your records.

Yours

The keeper


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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David J 3
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 13:56
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 14:17) *
QUOTE (David J 3 @ Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 12:24) *
Should I ignore this?

If you want a court claim against you...

Golden ticket this one:

QUOTE
Dear Poke in the Eye,

I have just received your Parking Charge Notice *** for vehicle *******.

You have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to give notice of keeper liability as prescribed by section 9 (2) (f) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

I do not expect to hear from you again, or from any debt collectors, except to confirm that no further action will be taken on this matter and my personal details have been removed from your records.

Yours

The keeper



Many thanks, JLC and Nosferatu1001. I've now had a look at POFA.

If I understand correctly, what they sent me is not a notice to keeper on which they can rely. Three quick questions:

* Might they try for a second bite of the cherry and send me a new notice to keeper that does comply?

* Their notice is dated 17 days after the alleged breach. So don't they also fall foul of s9(5) of Schedule 4 of POFA? (It actually came through my letterbox 6 days later still, but in any case they can't say they gave it to me within 14 days of the alleged breach.)

* Which is the better way to submit an appeal, online or by "signed for" post, or does it not matter?

Thanks again,
David

This post has been edited by David J 3: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 13:57
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ostell
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 16:54
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They can't correct and issue a compluant NTK as they would be well outside the relevant period and fail 9 (5). You could also add that fail to the letter.

As with any PE NTK if it does not mention POFA on the reverse they know that they have failed to comply with POFA but just hope that you don't know about minor things like that and will pay up anyway

You can appeal anyway you like. If online then screengrab each page and beware the dropdowns that default.t to "driver".

I prefer first class mail with a free certificate of posting from any post office. Assumed delivered 2 working days later

This post has been edited by ostell: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 16:59
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David J 3
post Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 18:51
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QUOTE (ostell @ Fri, 19 Jul 2019 - 17:54) *
They can't correct and issue a compluant NTK as they would be well outside the relevant period and fail 9 (5). You could also add that fail to the letter.

As with any PE NTK if it does not mention POFA on the reverse they know that they have failed to comply with POFA but just hope that you don't know about minor things like that and will pay up anyway

You can appeal anyway you like. If online then screengrab each page and beware the dropdowns that default.t to "driver".

I prefer first class mail with a free certificate of posting from any post office. Assumed delivered 2 working days later

Thanks for this.

I am replying by post as follows:

QUOTE
Ref: Parking Charge Notice Ref. No. xxxxx

Dear Sirs,

APPEAL

I have received the above-referenced Parking Charge Notice which you addressed to me by dint of my being the registered keeper of the vehicle to which you refer.

I hereby appeal on the grounds that your notice is invalid for reasons which include the following.

1) In your notice, which I received today, you allege that a breach of contract occurred on xxxxx. The notice was issued 17 days later, on xxxxx. Under the terms of s9(5) of Schedule 4 of the Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012, to be valid such a notice must be given to the keeper within 14 days of the alleged breach. You failed to meet this requirement.

2) You have also failed to give notice of keeper liability as prescribed by s9(2)(f) of the said Schedule to the Act and therefore even if the notice were not out of time you would still not be able to transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper. For the avoidance of doubt, I emphasise that there is no legal obligation for me to name the driver at the time; there would not even be such an obligation if the notice were not out of time; and I will not be doing so.

3) Even if the notice were not out of time, you would also have failed to comply with s9(2)© of the said Schedule to the Act in that you have failed to give proper and sufficient description of what you believe were the facts that made the charge payable, since while you state what you allege to be the beginning and end of the period that the vehicle spent in the car park you do not specify the maximum period that you allege was agreed with the driver to be spendable in the car park without charge.

I expect to receive your confirmation that you have cancelled the notice and complied with the instruction I am hereby issuing for you to delete my personal information from your records. If you do not cancel the notice and I am therefore obliged to appeal to the Parking on Private Land Appeals service, then when that service instructs you to cancel the notice I will charge you for the time I have had to spend on the appeals at xxxxx per hour plus expenses. This is not an offer of a contract: that figure will be in reasonable compensation for the losses I will have been caused to incur.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Yours sincerely,

xxxxx


This post has been edited by David J 3: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 - 07:00
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ostell
post Sat, 20 Jul 2019 - 08:10
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The notice is not invalid, it just can't hold the keeper liable.
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David J 3
post Sat, 3 Aug 2019 - 10:11
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I have now received a "PCN Reminder" from Parking Eye, but no acknowledgement of my appeal.

I couldn't post a copy to this website because I was too close to my maximum allowed space, but I have put copies of the front and back of the document at Imgur

here

and

here

This post has been edited by David J 3: Sat, 3 Aug 2019 - 10:53
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Jlc
post Sat, 3 Aug 2019 - 10:43
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You want your name and address in public?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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David J 3
post Sat, 3 Aug 2019 - 10:54
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 3 Aug 2019 - 11:43) *
You want your name and address in public?

Fixed. Thanks.

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David J 3
post Tue, 6 Aug 2019 - 17:30
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Parking Eye have now rejected my appeal. In their obviously template rejection they show no indication that they even bothered to read my appeal: omitting to refer to ANY of the three numbered grounds I cited, they ludicrously state instead that the reason for their rejection is that I did not provide "sufficient evidence" to show that I did not "break the terms and conditions on the signage". What this assertion has to do with my appeal on the grounds that they failed to comply with sections 9(5), 9(2)(f) and 9(2)( c) of POFA is unclear :-)

They also sent me four further pages of "information".

Links to the rejection notice and the further information follow (six pages in total):

What should I do now? Enter an appeal to POPLA saying my grounds remain the same as the three grounds stated in my appeal to Parking Eye, none of which Parking Eye have deigned to acknowledge the assertion of, let alone respond to? And since I will need to be compensated for the time and resources I have lost and am losing, should I calculate a figure and include it in my appeal to POPLA? I have already spent a number of hours on this.

Rejection: Page 1, Page 2

Further information: Page 1, Page 2, Page 3, Page 4,
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ostell
post Tue, 6 Aug 2019 - 18:23
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As they are POFA failures then POPLA will probably uphold your appeal.
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David J 3
post Tue, 13 Aug 2019 - 18:55
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QUOTE (ostell @ Tue, 6 Aug 2019 - 19:23) *
As they are POFA failures then POPLA will probably uphold your appeal.

I've now appealed to POPLA on exactly the same grounds relied on in the appeal to Parking Eye, all of which PE ignored, and I've asked POPLA not only to order PE to cancel the notice but to admonish them for the inadequacy of their appeals process.

I'll report back here when I hear more.

Thanks everyone!

This post has been edited by David J 3: Tue, 13 Aug 2019 - 18:58
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 14 Aug 2019 - 10:29
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POPLA will not commment on the operators appeal process.
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David J 3
post Wed, 14 Aug 2019 - 21:50
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Wed, 14 Aug 2019 - 11:29) *
POPLA will not commment on the operators appeal process.

Do they tell appellants the reasons for their decisions?
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 08:15
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They tell thenm the reaosn why they accept or refuse the appeal.
The operators appeals proces being crap does not feature into their decision making, at all.
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David J 3
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 12:42
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 09:15) *
They tell thenm the reaosn why they accept or refuse the appeal.
The operators appeals proces being crap does not feature into their decision making, at all.

OK, got you. I hope POPLA respond to all three grounds. Maybe they'll uphold the first one that states that the notice was out of time under s9(5) and then say that therefore nothing else matters. I was surprised the operator issued a notice that was statutorily clearly out of time, giving two dates which are inarguably separated by more than 14 days - a waste of everybody's time.
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 12:49
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It isnt "out of time". they just cant chase the keeper using POFA, thats all.
Its an invoice. There is no regulation of the process, none.
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David J 3
post Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 14:05
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 15 Aug 2019 - 13:49) *
It isnt "out of time". they just cant chase the keeper using POFA, thats all.
Its an invoice. There is no regulation of the process, none.

Valid as a begging letter, OK, but out of time for purposes of s6(1)(b), and through that, s4.
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