Sad times - assisting emergency service vehicle to pass not possible |
Sad times - assisting emergency service vehicle to pass not possible |
Fri, 17 Nov 2017 - 17:27
Post
#1
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 82 Joined: 29 Oct 2013 Member No.: 66,329 |
I was already waiting at a red light when the ambulance came around the corner behind me a few moments later. Despite the ambulance honking its horn, I chose not to make room by moving forwards even though it was safe to do so because I would have run a red light by a couple of meters.
I feel a little guilty blocking the ambulance even though it was only for maybe 10 few seconds until the lights changed back to green, but the law is the law ? highway code 219. It feels like a case of complying with the law to avoid potential prosecution, but not doing the right thing. Anyone else had a similar experience ? |
|
|
Advertisement |
Fri, 17 Nov 2017 - 17:27
Post
#
|
Advertise here! |
|
|
|
Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 19:58
Post
#41
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
However, s. 36 does not create an absolute offence. Defences of duress and duress of circumstances can apply (assuming that the facts of the case support them). As might the public interest test. If you plough into other traffic in order to allow an ambulance to pass, or otherwise do something similarly stupid, it would be difficult to defend, but if you reasonably believed that delaying an ambulance (particularly one which is actively indicating it's desire for you to get pout of its way) might create a risk of death or serious injury, and you do no more than is necessary to mitigate that risk, I would say that you have a sound defence. Buckoke v. Greater London Council [1971] Ch. 655 suggests that it the circumstances you describe would not be a defence in a criminal court. Of course, you could look at challenging the prosecutorial decision, but that's another kettle of fish altogether. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
|
|
|
Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 20:19
Post
#42
|
|
Member Group: Life Member Posts: 24,212 Joined: 9 Sep 2004 From: Reading Member No.: 1,624 |
That appears to predate the courts' acceptance of the defence of duress of circumstances.
-------------------- Andy
Some people think that I make them feel stupid. To be fair, they deserve most of the credit. |
|
|
Sat, 6 Jan 2018 - 20:37
Post
#43
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
That appears to predate the courts' acceptance of the defence of duress of circumstances. The problem is it's all down to how reasonable it is to believe, in the circumstances of a particular case, that there is a risk of serious death or injury. The driver hoking his horn and gesticulating might help a defendant, but then you're getting very fact specific. There have been occasions where an ambulance has been on blue lights, but, to be honest, whether we got there 5 minutes earlier or later was never going to make that big a difference. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
|
|
|
Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 11:57
Post
#44
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 33 Joined: 6 Jul 2013 Member No.: 63,354 |
One of my inlaws works in a London control room, she regularly provides evidence of blue light movents which leads to the canceling of red light camera FPNs.
|
|
|
Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 12:04
Post
#45
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
|
|
|
Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 19:21
Post
#46
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
One of my inlaws works in a London control room, she regularly provides evidence of blue light movents which leads to the canceling of red light camera FPNs. That's interesting. How does the driver/owner go about requesting that ? Any person caught on CCTV can ask for a copy of the footage by making a subject access request under the Data Protection Act. You don't need to give a reason and you are entitled to the data whether you are being investigated / accused of a crime or not. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
|
|
|
Fri, 12 Jan 2018 - 20:11
Post
#47
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
One of my inlaws works in a London control room, she regularly provides evidence of blue light movents which leads to the canceling of red light camera FPNs. That's interesting. How does the driver/owner go about requesting that ? Any person caught on CCTV can ask for a copy of the footage by making a subject access request under the Data Protection Act. You don't need to give a reason and you are entitled to the data whether you are being investigated / accused of a crime or not. That's fair enough but I was thinking more on requesting the control room to release their tracking data. |
|
|
Sat, 13 Jan 2018 - 19:09
Post
#48
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
One of my inlaws works in a London control room, she regularly provides evidence of blue light movents which leads to the canceling of red light camera FPNs. That's interesting. How does the driver/owner go about requesting that ? Any person caught on CCTV can ask for a copy of the footage by making a subject access request under the Data Protection Act. You don't need to give a reason and you are entitled to the data whether you are being investigated / accused of a crime or not. That's fair enough but I was thinking more on requesting the control room to release their tracking data. If you want aggregated data, make a request under the Freedom of Information Act, they will release it appropriately anonymised and you don't even have to pay a £10 fee. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
|
|
|
Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 12:34
Post
#49
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 547 Joined: 5 Oct 2012 Member No.: 57,550 |
There's an easy solution... just don't commit any traffic offenses for blue light vehicles and you won't get in any bother.
|
|
|
Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 19:00
Post
#50
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 604 Joined: 12 Oct 2009 Member No.: 32,760 |
There's an easy solution... just don't commit any traffic offenses for blue light vehicles and you won't get in any bother. Some people might think it's more socially responsible to get out of the way, if it's possible to do so safely. (They certainly don't always sit and wait quietly for the lights to change; from my experiences up here, it's more likely that they don't.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifD2H_iLyNI&t=1s |
|
|
Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 19:11
Post
#51
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 7,234 Joined: 5 Jan 2007 From: England Member No.: 9,919 |
As i understand it a uniformed office can direct you to contravene red lights etc. So could it not be construed a uniformed officer in a police car sounding his horn was in fact directing you to do such a thing?
|
|
|
Mon, 15 Jan 2018 - 21:20
Post
#52
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
There's an easy solution... just don't commit any traffic offenses for blue light vehicles and you won't get in any bother. Some people might think it's more socially responsible to get out of the way, if it's possible to do so safely. ....... Absolutely. Though saw a sight today that may have left me in a quandary if it came behind me at the lights.... On motorway, horns and blue lights coming up in outside lane, turned out to be a black Volvo with discrete blues in the grill..... fine, a plain motorway patrol car. But followed by a old, battered, white over rust Transit, orange light set on top and again, blues in the grill and it turned out, behind..... Get that behind you at the lights and you would think the local travellers were taking the pee. This post has been edited by DancingDad: Wed, 17 Jan 2018 - 00:57 |
|
|
Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 22:20
Post
#53
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 1,570 Joined: 13 May 2010 Member No.: 37,524 |
As i understand it a uniformed office can direct you to contravene red lights etc. So could it not be construed a uniformed officer in a police car sounding his horn was in fact directing you to do such a thing? As I understand it, a Police Officer can direct you to contravene the red light, but he would have to be out, directing the traffic, and making sure that the way is clear for the cars that he/she are directing can contravene the red light safely. A car behind you hinting their horn, doesn't in my opinion satisfy this requirement |
|
|
Tue, 16 Jan 2018 - 22:56
Post
#54
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
There is a difference between crossing the junction and continuing on your merry way and crossing the line to pull over enough to let the EV through i would always do the second
but the first only with extreme care -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
|
|
|
Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 01:42
Post
#55
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 235 Joined: 1 Dec 2004 Member No.: 1,969 |
As i understand it a uniformed office can direct you to contravene red lights etc. So could it not be construed a uniformed officer in a police car sounding his horn was in fact directing you to do such a thing? As I understand it, a Police Officer can direct you to contravene the red light, but he would have to be out, directing the traffic, and making sure that the way is clear for the cars that he/she are directing can contravene the red light safely. A car behind you hinting their horn, doesn't in my opinion satisfy this requirement This thread is particularly interesting to me because exactly this scenario happened, except it was a police car and not an ambulance. I was already at the front in the right most or 3 lanes at a roundabout, nowhere to move to and the police car was help up for all of 6 seconds before the lights changed. However, the gestures of the police officers and clear mouthing off from them as they passed, led me to call the police station and make a complaint. The Sarge who dealt with it was doing his best to encourage me that they wouldn't seek to prosecute anyone that moved out of the way. I'll treat a case on its merits but in this situation I wasn't crossing the line without proper direction from a police officer and waving his hands wasn't proper direction. |
|
|
Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 09:46
Post
#56
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
.......I'll treat a case on its merits but in this situation I wasn't crossing the line without proper direction from a police officer and waving his hands wasn't proper direction. Personally, I regard blues and twos up my chuff with a cop waving at me and mouthing "get outa the 'effing way you stupid twonker" as proper direction. |
|
|
Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 11:01
Post
#57
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 7,234 Joined: 5 Jan 2007 From: England Member No.: 9,919 |
Exactly my earlier point
As I understand it, a Police Officer can direct you to contravene the red light, but he would have to be out, directing the traffic, and making sure that the way is clear for the cars that he/she are directing can contravene the red light safely. Can you qualify this? |
|
|
Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 17:11
Post
#58
|
|
New Member Group: Members Posts: 5 Joined: 25 Jan 2018 Member No.: 96,157 |
As i understand it a uniformed office can direct you to contravene red lights etc. So could it not be construed a uniformed officer in a police car sounding his horn was in fact directing you to do such a thing? How do you know that's what he is sounding his horn for? How do you know he is uniformed? For that matter, how do you know he is police? I make it a point nowadays of stopping immediately when I hear/see what appears to be a police car approaching from behind. They are usually driven recklessly, sometimes dangerously, and that is wisest. If this at traffic lights, tough for them. I will not move. |
|
|
Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 17:23
Post
#59
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
|
|
|
Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 17:53
Post
#60
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 33,610 Joined: 2 Apr 2008 From: Not in the UK Member No.: 18,483 |
tough for them. I will not move. Tough for anyone they might be trying to help, too. But never mind, eh, at least you can smugly congratulate yourself on sticking it to the man. -------------------- Moderator
Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed. |
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: Thursday, 28th March 2024 - 09:41 |