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Winning bet or losing bet?, Does an own goal count as a goal?
Figaro
post Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 19:29
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Hello all, here's one that could see a healthy debate. I very rarely gamble, generally just the grand national and the odd big sporting event and today I placed a bet on the World Cup Final played this afternoon.

France v Croatia - #WhatOddsPaddy - Featured
1st goal scored to be a header 16/5

For those who don't know the first goal was an own goal, headed in. Paddy Power have decided not to pay out.

I'm in the online chat with them now, they have so far acknowledged that the correct score was 4-2 (according to their betting markets) so the own goal is at least acknowledged as a goal for certain markets (bets).

I think the rule they are trying to rely on is as follows...

QUOTE
Own goals do not count towards any player or team’s goal tallies (unless otherwise stated). By way of further explanation, if a player who plays for Team A scores an own goal while playing against Team B, neither he nor Team A will be deemed to have increased their goal tally (although Team B’s goal tally will be deemed to have increased by one).


My argument here is that 'as otherwise stated', Team B's tally is increased by one, the goal is acknowledged and as it was headed in, i'm a winner. The bet I made had nothing to do with which team or which player, hence the exclusion doesn't apply.

I've asked for exactly which rule they are relying on to refuse my bet but in the meanwhile does anyone want to chip in with any opinions?

SO far...

Sun, Jul 15, 19:58:13 Stephanie: I had a look into the bet for you, and I'm afraid I have to confirm it has actually been settled correctly Jonathan. Unfortunately If the first goal is an own goal it does not count as a goal for settlement purposes.
Sun, Jul 15, 19:58:30 You: Own goals do not count towards any player or team’s goal tallies (unless otherwise stated). By way of further explanation, if a player who plays for Team A scores an own goal while playing against Team B, neither he nor Team A will be deemed to have increased their goal tally (although Team B’s goal tally will be deemed to have increased by one).
Sun, Jul 15, 19:59:13 You: unless otherwise stated, and it clearly states below that Team B's goal will be deemed to have increased by one.
Sun, Jul 15, 19:59:50 You: so France's goal tally was increased by one, hence the first goal was scored and tallied.
Sun, Jul 15, 20:0:17 You: the bet wasn't about a team or a player, it was about how it was scored.
Sun, Jul 15, 20:0:49 You: can i ask you what the correct score of the match was?
Sun, Jul 15, 20:3:47 Stephanie: The final score was of France 4-2 Croatia.
Sun, Jul 15, 20:5:48 You: Great, so the own goal is acknowledged as a goal. and it was a header, so my bet wins. The rules clearly state as such. In the example to make it clearer, you even spell it out. Team B (France) get a goal, the first goal, and it was a header.
Sun, Jul 15, 20:7:29 You: I'm failing to understand where in your terms and conditions that i lose? Can you expend on it please?
Sun, Jul 15, 20:7:36 You: sorry, expand?
Sun, Jul 15, 20:14:23 Stephanie: An own goal does count for a team's goal, yes however it does not count for this market unfortunately.
Sun, Jul 15, 20:15:21 You: That's not a good enough answer i'm afraid, show me the specific rule that says it doesn't count for this market?
Sun, Jul 15, 20:25:2 Stephanie: Own goals do not count towards any player or team’s goal tallies. Therefore technically no player scored the header.
Sun, Jul 15, 20:27:35 You: And where in my bet does it state a player has to score it (even technically). You've acknowledged the goal was scored and you've just said it was indeed headed in.
Sun, Jul 15, 20:28:10 You: The bet was as follows... "1st goal scored to be a header"

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post Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 19:29
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666
post Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 18:20
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QUOTE (Figaro @ Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 18:44) *
Ok, I had a reply from PP about the bet.

QUOTE
Thank you for contacting Paddy Power Customer Support.

Firstly we would like to apologize for the delay in response to your query.

In regards to your query we can confirm the bet receipt in question is 100% settled correctly in accordance with our soccer rules which can be found in the help centre below.

First/Last goalscorer
Own goals do not count for settlement of first/last goalscorer bets.

However, as a goodwill gesture for the delay in responding to your query I would be happy to refund your stake as a free bet.

If you wish to avail of this please call us or go onto a live chat and quote incident reference xxx to the agent and they can apply the £5 Free bet.

If you have any further queries please visit our Help Centre

Kind Regards,
Escalation Management Team
Paddy Power Customer Service




I was thinking of replying with the following email and will welcome any critique...


QUOTE
Hello xxx

I called again this evening to further discuss my dispute to the bet you commented on below.

I still maintain I am right, you maintain the bet was settled correctly.

I will take this all the way to small claims court if necessary, more for the principal of the matter and the experience of doing it rather than the overall economic benefit as we're not talking about lots of money!

You will lose in court for the simple reason that your #whatoddspaddy rules do not exclude own goals counting for the specific bet I placed. To remind you, my bet was simply for the 'first goal scored'. It was not connected with a specific team or a player. I did not place a bet on first / last goalscorer. If you feel it is ok to look at rules from elsewhere in the main soccer rules, may I bring your attention to the following...

Number of corners / Number of goals / Bookings
Bets on number of goals include own goals.

If you still disagree with me please let me know when we have fully exhausted all available dispute resolution steps and advise on the next level of escalation so that we can start to get independent bodies involved.

Thanks

xxx



To remind everyone, the #whatoddspaddy rules section is as follows...

QUOTE
#WhatOddsPaddy Football Rules
The rules in this sub-section apply specifically to the settlement of any soccer bets which are placed via #whatoddspaddy (“**”). All other settlement rules which are included in this “Soccer Rules" section or elsewhere on this website (including in Paddy Power’s Rules and Regulations) will also apply to the settlement of ** bets unless they contradict, or conflict with, those included in this sub-section (in which case, the rules in this sub-section shall take precedence).
Own goals do not count towards any player or team’s goal tallies (unless otherwise stated). By way of further explanation, if a player who plays for Team A scores an own goal while playing against Team B, neither he nor Team A will be deemed to have increased their goal tally (although Team B’s goal tally will be deemed to have increased by one).



Just a small point - it's "principle".
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Figaro
post Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 19:36
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It is indeed, thanks for that 666.
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cp8759
post Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 20:43
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You should 100% take this to the small claims court if they don't pay up. They're either really stupid and don't understand what they're talking about, or they're trying to fob you off.


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If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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I am Weasel
post Wed, 22 Aug 2018 - 04:38
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From: Winnersh, UK
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I would take it to the small claims court. As soon as PP receive the claim, they are likely to settle. No bookmaker wants to have a court claim decided against them; they think it would open a floodgate. I had a dispute with William Hill a decade or so back and they would not back down until I made my court claim, at which point they folded. Do not forget to claim the cost of filing the claim too
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