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Council PCN - please help and advice, Paid but not all coins registered
Crabscoot
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 14:29
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Hi all,

First of all, thank you for those who take time to read and post advice. My situation is as below.

I have parked in Birmingham council parking. The charges is £1.70/hr. We 'paid' £1.70 and pressed the green almighty button for the ticket. Leave ticket in windscreen and got PCN when we return.

Looking extremely confused, we check the parking ticket which we have paid, it turned out that the machine have only took in £1.50 and issued the ticket for 1 min.

Time printed on ticket:
Arrival time: 11.41
Departure time 11.42
Fee Paid: 1.50

we got ticket before less than 30 minutes from arrival time.

We took a picture of the machine, there are 2 labels on it which state: Check all coins have been registered before pressing for ticket.

http_s://imgur.com/a/HcB0E
Please remove the '_' to go to the link.

I think there are chances of 'winning' the appeal as it shows we tried to paid, however I did some search and only 30% or so successfully appeal in 2016 for Birmingham Council. What is your advice before I submit the online appeal?

Thanks in advance your reply.
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post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 14:29
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Mad Mick V
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 14:54
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The fact that they have that note on the ticket machine demonstrates to me that the system is flawed and the Council recognises this.

Post up the PCN without personal details please.

I would contend this case on legitimate expectation--you have a legitimate expectation that the ticket issuing system is foolproof and you have a legitimate expectation that having made payment your vehicle has the correct ticket. Ergo the contravention did not occur.

How a £1.50 payment morphs into a one minute parking allowance is truly laughable (I hope you kept the ticket).

Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 14:55
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Jo Carn
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 15:54
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What time was the PCN issued?
Was it before 11.52?
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Crabscoot
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 00:24
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Hi Mick and Jo,

thanks for reply.

ticket was issues at 12.03. I currently do not have PCN with me. Will post it here once I have it tmr.

@Mick, you are correct that I do expect the machine do not issue a ticket when a minimum payment have been made, as my experience with all other machine I used before does that. and yes, I did keep the ticket with me.
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Crabscoot
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 00:44
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QUOTE (Crabscoot @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 00:24) *
I do expect the machine do not issue a ticket when a minimum payment have been made,



I meant to say when a minimum payment have not been made.
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hcandersen
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 07:21
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Going to march out of step, but hopefully it will inform the tone of your challenge.

OP, it was your fault that you did not check the details in the payment window on the P&D machine.
It was your fault that you pressed the button prematurely.
It was your responsibility to check the details on the ticket when you placed it in your car.

You cannot pass all of this on to the council that in some way it is their fault that they have not got foolproof guards which prevent even the most casual and inattentive motorist from making mistakes with very clear and simple instructions. And as regards suggesting that the wording on the machine implies that the machine doesn't operate properly? These are just plain and simple instructions to the possibly unwary to not feed money in too fast and check that the coins are legal tender (standard on all types of vending machines with mechanical coin systems which also check that coins are not counterfeit!!!!)

And as regards legitimate expectation, the council have a legitimate expectation that motorists will comply with the clear instructions on the machine.

So, I suggest you approach this in a more conciliatory manner.

Sorry, made a mistake, but as you can see I paid £1.50 which pro rata would have allowed me to park until 12.34, well after the time in the PCN.

Can't see the PCN, where is it?

Unusual for a P&D to have 'arrival time', it's a strange concept, so we should see these docs.
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Incandescent
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 09:22
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We need to see what is the minimum allowed parking period, I hardly think that is one minute ! So whilst the OP may have not checked the ticket as diligently as he might have, the council are surely under a duty to make the machine as user-friendly as possible. If £1.70 was the minimum payment, why was a ticket issued at all if that payment had not been recorded in the machine ?
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Crabscoot
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 12:14
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Hi all,

both ticket and PCN attached.







thanks again for everyone who responded.

B

This post has been edited by Crabscoot: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 12:18
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hcandersen
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 12:27
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I cannot disagree from the perspective of fairness and the authority may well cancel on this basis, but less chance if the OP goes in all guns blazing blaming the council for their own errors. But what we think should be equitable does not become a duty simply on this basis.

I think the OP should limit their challenge to what they did, genuine mistake, evidence of payment and request for discretion. Then and only then add that it is somewhat strange that the machine even issued a ticket.

OP, on this point, we really do need to see the machine and its instructions because there is a separate tariff for motorcycles, £1 for all day. The machine wouldn't know you were not a motorcycle unless prompted.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 12:28
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hcandersen
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 12:48
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Is there a separate section in the car park for motorcycles? Otherwise where has this gone:

https://www.birmingham.gov.uk/directory_rec...street_car_park
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Incandescent
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 12:52
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So now we have seen the sign, and the minimum payment is £1.70, so it seems to me the council are at fault in allowing a lesser payment to issue a ticket for one minute, this is a clear fault with the machine. I can't see how this could fail to win at adjudication. I agree that one should not go in heavy on reps. The OP needs to point out that their sign states that the minimum payment is £1.70 so a ticket should not have been issued. Any public body dealing with the public has a duty of care. This machine is clearly incorrectly programmed.
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Crabscoot
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 21:39
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@hcandersen,

The picture of the machine it self. I don't know if there is separate section for motorcycle as I was my first time there and I do not live in Birmingham. Nothing there seems to say anything about motorcycle or the £1 payment for motorcycle. That link was the correct car park.

I will draft and appeal as you and others suggest (not going in harsh and apologised that its genuine mistake) and post it here for comments before submitting it.

B



This post has been edited by Crabscoot: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 21:43
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stamfordman
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 21:42
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What a crappy old machine. Usually a coin that doesn't 'register' falls through to the return slot. That's what I'd expect.

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cp8759
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 21:42
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Crabscoot can you show us the back of the PCN please?


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If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Crabscoot
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 21:54
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@cp8759,

let me know if you struggle to see it.



@stamfordman

I think what happened was, my OH was making the payment, then I came up next to her and distracted her. So she did not check the return slot after putting all the coins in and just press on the green button. :-/

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 07:21) *
motorists will comply with the clear instructions on the machine.


Agreed that it was partially my fault for not checking. I usually always do, but the one time I didnt.... Also looking at the machine, there arent really a clear instruction apart from the yellow sticker that say make sure coins are registered.
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cp8759
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 22:13
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I cannot find fault with the PCN wording,

QUOTE (Crabscoot @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 21:54) *
I think what happened was, my OH was making the payment, then I came up next to her and distracted her. So she did not check the return slot after putting all the coins in and just press on the green button. :-/

I'm with Incandescent on this one, I don't see how Crabscoot could fail to win at adjudication. As others have stated, at the informal challenge stage it might be best to simply explain the circumstances and ask the council to cancel the PCN on that basis. I would also point out that you didn't check the coin return slot so you didn't benefit from the missing 20p, and you were not in any event trying to avoid payment. It's not unheard of for councils to cancel PCNs in these sorts of circumstances.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 22:13


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Crabscoot
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 22:56
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Hi all,

Thanks for everyone's feedback, thoughts and advice. I've draft an appeal taking everyone input to it. Please see below and let me know if I can word it better. Thanks again.

*********
I wish to appeal against the PCNxxxx issued on xxxx.

I have made a payment and attached is my payment ticket. At that time, I did not realise that only £1.50 was registered, neither did I check the return slot, nor the expiry time. It was a genuine mistake and I have evidence of payment which shows that I was not trying to avoid making a payment. When the payment was being made, I saw the CEO entering the carpark and checking the tickets on other cars.

As the sign states £1.70 for up to 1 hour, which means the minimum payment of £1.70 is required, I assumed that a ticket would not be issued unless there is £1.70 or more have been paid. In my past experience with other ticket machines, the machine does not issue a ticket unless a minimum payment have been made.

Therefore with my situation above, I hope that the council will consider my appeal and would like to request for discretion.

*******
B
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cp8759
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 23:10
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I've added a bit in red, it's good to spell things out.

QUOTE (Crabscoot @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 22:56) *
I have made a payment and attached is my payment ticket. At that time, I inserted £1.70 into the coin slot, I did not realise that only £1.50 was registered, neither did I check the return slot, nor the expiry time. It was a genuine mistake and I have evidence of payment which shows that I was not trying to avoid making a payment. When the payment was being made, I saw the CEO entering the carpark and checking the tickets on other cars.


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Incandescent
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 23:15
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As an informal challenge, I expect they'll just bat it away in the expectation you'll cough-up, as virtually everybody does. You will need to stand your ground on this one if necessary, hence forego the discount, and wait for the Notice to Owner, so start to save the additional money in case you get an adjudicator who had no breakfast that day. By the time you get to an adjudication you'll have easily saved the money up and when you win, will be your beer money for the day, (or maybe longer !)
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cp8759
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 23:19
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 23:15) *
As an informal challenge, I expect they'll just bat it away in the expectation you'll cough-up, as virtually everybody does. You will need to stand your ground on this one if necessary, hence forego the discount, and wait for the Notice to Owner, so start to save the additional money in case you get an adjudicator who had no breakfast that day. By the time you get to an adjudication you'll have easily saved the money up and when you win, will be your beer money for the day, (or maybe longer !)

The last three informal challenges I've sent myself (two PPC and one council) have all been accepted the first time round, no questions asked. So you never know, someone at the council may apply some common sense.


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