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BW Legal, development management company and I- an ongoing saga!
Elliefizzie
post Mon, 22 Nov 2021 - 12:17
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Hi all

Hope someone can give me advice on what I do next. From reading other posts on here, it seems I have made a bit of a mess so far!

Live in small housing development, lived here since they were built. Townhouse style development, we all have parking spaces instead of drive ways. For clarity, house and parking space are owned as free hold, we are not leaseholders, pay no ground rent. Deeds of house clearly show parking space marked as part of property. Council never took over development as we were initially told would happen, instead a management company was appointed. No parking controls in place when we bought house. We live close to mainline rail station, commuters parking in resident spaces became an issue and a parking company was brought in at some stage and permits provided to residents. I objected to using a permit given I pay a mortgage on my property which includes my parking space, no cowboy parking company is making money off my property. Was told that was fine, my space would not be monitored.

In early 2021 I bought a new car in after old car went kaput. Whilst waiting on old car to be collected for scrap, I was parking new car a few streets away as only have a single parking space. My very nice neighbour was aware of this and when she went away for a few days, gave me permission to use her parking space. She also gave me her space permit which I put on the parcel shelf so it could be seen clearly through rear windscreen. Parking and Property Management Ltd put a ticket on my car that night claiming I was parking without authorisation in someone else’s space. I called the Management Company, explained that the ticket should be cancelled given I was parking with full permission in the space owned by my neighbour. They said they would deal with it so assumed matter was resolved and I forgot about it. Went back home to Ireland for a number of months only to come back to threatening letters from BW legal on behalf of the parking company threatening legal action if I didn’t pay £250. Stupidly I ignored the letters, thinking they were idle threats (never having dealt with parking companies before!). I then get a letter from the County Court about the matter and advising I need to submit a defence. Again I was very naive and just wrote down truthfully that I was parked in a space owned by my neighbour who had provided permission to park there (I attached an email she wrote for me advising of this) and also that I had displayed a permit so I am sure this was a misunderstanding. I didn’t realise how detailed my defence should be, I literally wrote a few lines saying it seemed to be a misunderstanding (I am now aware of how stupid I have been!)

Since I submitted my defence, several more letters arrived from BW Legal advising me to settle before I get a CCJ and that they will also be seeking further expenses from me. Apparently the argument is that the t&c’s of parking in our development requires the permit in the FRONT windscreen so I am liable for the parking charge. I am absolutely astonished at how this has escalated. How can a parking company’s demands supersede those of the legal owner of the parking space whose permission i had to park there? I have again involved the management company who have said they would see what they could do but not sure what I need to do myself from here. Obviously need to take this rather seriously, otherwise will be on the hook for over £250 plus the threatened extra expenses they say I will owe.

Would gratefully accept any advice on what is best to do next. Speaking to the lady at the County Court, the next stage is mediation? Do I need to get legal advice at this point?

Many thanks in advance!

This post has been edited by Elliefizzie: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 - 12:19
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post Mon, 22 Nov 2021 - 12:17
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 22 Nov 2021 - 12:27
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Ok so most of the first bit doesn't have relevance, as this is about parking in another space
Does the owner of that space also own the freehold?
If so, then of course the mc can't do jack **** about the space. They're not the landowners, landholders and they don't have explicit authorisation to implement parking controls. Any licence to park, granted by the owner, is far superior to any stupid parking company

At least it sounds like you have set out a sensible defence - the permit, when you talk about it, eas only shown FOR CONVENIENCE, not because it was needed.

This post has been edited by nosferatu1001: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 - 13:18
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Elliefizzie
post Mon, 22 Nov 2021 - 13:17
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Hi nosferatu1001

Thank you for the reply! Sorry I provided too much information,was not sure what would be relevant! Yes, my neighbour who gave me permission to park in her space is also the freehold owner of her parking space according to the deeds, I checked the deeds online. Same as my own with parking space clearly marked.

In their letters BW Legal keep referring to spaces as “allocated” to residents as if we are leaseholders which is most certainly not the case.

But the case is progressing to County Court, should I do anything else now? Do I need a solicitor? This is all very new to me!
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 22 Nov 2021 - 13:32
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No, you don't need a solicitor,,and you'd not get those costs back even if you win.

Ignoring was a bad idea , as was ringing and not doing it in writing. For all you know nothing has happened and so YOU look unreasonable fir not contacting the parking firm.

Having filed a defence you will
- file a DQ
- be allocated to your local court
- will get a hearing date at which point you'll have a deadline to file your witness statement and other evidence. This would include proof that the land is freehold of the owner.

I'd suggest writing to BW separately, WITHOUT marking it "without prejudice", including proof of your friends ownership and stating that, as their client does not have a contract with the landowner - her - they are in breach of the code of practice, are operating without authorisation, and have zero chance of success. To continue to court would be unreasonable, and when you precise you will claim your costs to defend in full, on the indemnity basis, at £19 per hour.

Instead, You give them 7 days to discontinue on a drop hands basis. You wil bear your own costs to date, and their client will do the same

Go to the MSE forum Newbies thread. Google it. Read post two on. Takes you through the entire process, but DONT start going back and doing things in a rush - as you've filed a defence, you're interested in the DQ point onwards.
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The Rookie
post Mon, 22 Nov 2021 - 13:45
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Mon, 22 Nov 2021 - 13:32) *
- will get a hearing date at which point you'll have a deadline to file your witness statement and other evidence. This would include proof that the land is freehold of the owner.

Their witness statement would be useful as well!


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Elliefizzie
post Mon, 22 Nov 2021 - 14:08
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So I have a letter from BWlegal in response to my defence. Would this be their witness statement?

Basically saying i was parked on private land, operated and managed by their client and use of the car park is on the basis of the displayed contract t&c’s, blah blah blah. They have attached photos of my car from the front and side but none showing rear where they would have seen the permit on the parcel shelf.

They have said that in my defence statement I have not disputed the claim and they rely on CPR16.5(5), and thus by not disputing the claim I must admit to the same. That whether or not another resident provided me with permission to use their allocated bay is not relevant.

The defence I sent clearly said that residents are owners of their parking spaces so maybe the parking company don’t care about this?
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Jlc
post Mon, 22 Nov 2021 - 14:30
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QUOTE (Elliefizzie @ Mon, 22 Nov 2021 - 14:08) *
They have attached photos of my car from the front and side but none showing rear where they would have seen the permit on the parcel shelf.

Probably because the signs say to display the permit in the windscreen?


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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DWMB2
post Mon, 22 Nov 2021 - 15:01
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QUOTE (Elliefizzie @ Mon, 22 Nov 2021 - 14:08) *
So I have a letter from BWlegal in response to my defence. Would this be their witness statement?

The Rookie can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he was referring to a witness statement from your neighbour, confirming that they own the land on which your car was parked, on a freehold basis (which will be backed up by a copy of the relevant deeds etc. in your evidence), and that they had given you their express permission to park on their land*.

*even if they hadn't given you permission, the parking company still wouldn't necessarily have authority to issue a charge on your neighbour's land, but the fact that you had permission helps reinforce your credibility and reasonable-ness.

This post has been edited by DWMB2: Mon, 22 Nov 2021 - 15:04


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The Rookie
post Mon, 22 Nov 2021 - 16:11
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QUOTE (DWMB2 @ Mon, 22 Nov 2021 - 15:01) *
QUOTE (Elliefizzie @ Mon, 22 Nov 2021 - 14:08) *
So I have a letter from BWlegal in response to my defence. Would this be their witness statement?

The Rookie can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he was referring to a witness statement from your neighbour, confirming that they own the land on which your car was parked, on a freehold basis (which will be backed up by a copy of the relevant deeds etc. in your evidence), and that they had given you their express permission to park on their land*.

*even if they hadn't given you permission, the parking company still wouldn't necessarily have authority to issue a charge on your neighbour's land, but the fact that you had permission helps reinforce your credibility and reasonable-ness.

This!


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 22 Nov 2021 - 16:31
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OP - they can try, but clearly you are denying their claim. You just didn't u deer take any research before responding, so didn't use those precise words.
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Elliefizzie
post Fri, 14 Jan 2022 - 16:56
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Hi all

Posted before, got sent some letters about a parking charge from the County Court. Sent a rather useless defence in response as panicked and responded before I found any of the great advice forums for dealing with these shower of carcass pickers! Anyway last communication was about picking a convenient court location and also me turning down the mediation service. Not sure what happens next.

In short, I parked in my neighbour’s parking space with their permission. (They wrote me a letter saying as much which I did attach to my original defence and I also had screenshots of the text messages providing permission to park there before I did so.) I Stuck their permit up in rear windscreen not front windscreen and that meant I got a parking charge as apparently t&c’s of parking is front windscreen only.

The thing is, we all own our parking spaces. They appear on the deeds of our houses, we are all free holders here and only the common ground is under management by a management company. The management company sent a letter around a number of years back stating they were bringing in parking management and we all needed to display permits in our own spaces going forwards. There was never an option to opt in or out of the scheme. Now by going back and forth with the management company and trying to understand how they have been allowed to give a 3rd party permission to manage privately owned parking spaces without the say so of the actual property owner, I have gotten them to admit that yes all parking spaces are privately owned (they originally claimed we were leaseholders) and they said that as such all owners of the parking spaces were sent a letter giving the option to opt in or out of the parking scheme. The thing is we didn’t receive this. And I have asked 3 times now and no evidence of any such letter being sent has been provided because none of us received that option- I have asked my neighbours who agree that we were never given an option.

Is there anyone more au fait with the law here who can tell me if this means that the parking company can not supersede the wishes of the actual parking space owner? And that I was well within my rights to park on the property of my neighbour given I had their permission? BW Legal keep bombarding me with letters trying to suck me into a payment plan and I got another letter from the County court about a 2 year old parking ticket issued for parking on the road and not in my parking space in an emergency that I thought the management company had cancelled . I have such a headache from it all, it’s so draining that these leeches are allowed to bully and harass people like this. sad.gif would appreciate others input on this, am so worried I will end up paying £260 for each of these tickets plus BW Legal’s letters say they will be claiming for more money if judge rules in their favour. Can they even do that?

Many thanks in advance!

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DWMB2
post Fri, 14 Jan 2022 - 16:59
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This relates to your existing thread here: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=142309&hl= I'll ask a moderator to merge these for you.


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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 14 Jan 2022 - 23:04
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MSE forum, newbies thread, post two, tells you exactly what happens next. Read it.

NO. They can't tell you "you know your land, that is yours and we have no right s over? Well, if you don't do ANYTHING we are going to claim you've given us permission to sell your space for £100 a day to these robbing parasites".

It's a complete and utter nonsense.

What evidence do you have that the Mac cancelled it? For this second one, as it's different, a new thread is needed. You ALSO need to defend it. You got another claim form, presumably after getting a letter before claim?
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dp7
post Fri, 14 Jan 2022 - 23:24
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QUOTE (Elliefizzie @ Fri, 14 Jan 2022 - 16:56) *
Is there anyone more au fait with the law here who can tell me if this means that the parking company can not supersede the wishes of the actual parking space owner?


No, they cannot. They have no authority to operate on the land, and therefore have no standing to bring any claim.

This post has been edited by dp7: Fri, 14 Jan 2022 - 23:24
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The Rookie
post Sat, 15 Jan 2022 - 09:30
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That would be like my neighbour deciding to rent out my drive. You can’t sell the rights to something that isn’t yours/ you have the right to!

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Sat, 15 Jan 2022 - 09:30


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
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