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Pick up from Bus Stop
mothepro
post Tue, 24 Sep 2019 - 12:23
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Hi all,

My (elderly) parents received a PCN by post. My father had an appointment at the Royal Free Hospital and my mother picked him. He waited for her at the bus stop on Pond street and she drove by, stopped to pick him up, and went.

I know she shouldn't have but she thought a bus stop was a OK legal place to be picked up from.

Is there any requirement for CCTV enforcement to be signed or any other reason which could invalidate this PCN by post?

Attached is a copy of the PCN and the google maps link
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5541482,-0....6384!8i8192

Many thanks

Mo
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post Tue, 24 Sep 2019 - 12:23
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stamfordman
post Tue, 24 Sep 2019 - 12:39
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Sadly London bus stops are strictly no stopping and there are no exemptions for picking someone up, unlike on yellow lines where you parents would have been fine.

You can try discretion for a minimal stop. Any disabilities?

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5541113,-0....6384!8i8192

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Tue, 24 Sep 2019 - 12:41
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Incandescent
post Tue, 24 Sep 2019 - 12:46
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As Stamfordman says, virtually all London bus stops are now "no stopping except for buses", so a bit of a steep learning curve for your mother. You can try submitting reps on the basis of discretion for a minimal stop, but I would not hold out too much hope, such is London councils greed for money. My description of them is "venal and rapacious".
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stamfordman
post Tue, 24 Sep 2019 - 13:43
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Tue, 24 Sep 2019 - 13:46) *
I would not hold out too much hope, such is London councils greed for money. My description of them is "venal and rapacious".


A bit unfair as there can't really be shades of grey for no stopping - it would just open up a huge amount of appeals.

But I'll agree that a first time contravention could attract a warning - it would be good if the ULEZ charge did this certainly.
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mothepro
post Tue, 24 Sep 2019 - 16:56
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Thank you everyone.
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Spurious
post Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 10:34
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mothepro If this is still an active enquiry I have just, a week ago, had an appeal upheld at this very bus stop.
If you want to challenge the PCN you could try the grounds which proved successful for me.
Part of my appeal concerned not having any CCTV footage of the restriction sign on the bus stop included with the alleged offence footage, this was why I won the case.

This post has been edited by Spurious: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 10:36
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stamfordman
post Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 10:54
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QUOTE (Spurious @ Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 11:34) *
mothepro If this is still an active enquiry I have just, a week ago, had an appeal upheld at this very bus stop.
If you want to challenge the PCN you could try the grounds which proved successful for me.
Part of my appeal concerned not having any CCTV footage of the restriction sign on the bus stop included with the alleged offence footage, this was why I won the case.


Did you win at tribunal or did council cancel. I would be amazed if the the winning point were not showing the sign as those signs are on every bus stop.
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Spurious
post Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 11:47
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 11:54) *
QUOTE (Spurious @ Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 11:34) *
mothepro If this is still an active enquiry I have just, a week ago, had an appeal upheld at this very bus stop.
If you want to challenge the PCN you could try the grounds which proved successful for me.
Part of my appeal concerned not having any CCTV footage of the restriction sign on the bus stop included with the alleged offence footage, this was why I won the case.


Did you win at tribunal or did council cancel. I would be amazed if the the winning point were not showing the sign as those signs are on every bus stop.


Yes I took it to the London Tribunal who stated:
"However, I am unable to see any signage of bus stop restrictions in the
footage and the Council submits no library images of any restriction signs at this location. I am not
satisfied from the evidence that any restrictions were properly signed and I allow the appeal for that
reason."
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cp8759
post Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 20:40
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Sounds like a case of the council messing up the evidence pack, not something we can really advise people to rely on.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Spurious
post Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 10:41
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 21:40) *
Sounds like a case of the council messing up the evidence pack, not something we can really advise people to rely on.


Well that may well be the case but the evidence pack sent to me by Camden Council DID include two still images of the sign but none were present in the CCTV footage. My other defence was that my passenger (who was late for a hospital appointment) alighted from the vehicle without my instruction, after being held behind a stationary bus at the bus stop, and therefore events were beyond my control and the offence did not occur. The footage shows my vehicle had only stopped for four seconds and I did mention the 'de minimis' angle to the alleged offence of stopping in a marked bus stop. However, the grounds for the successful appeal were as previously stated, whether the tribunal saw that common sense should prevail and found grounds to uphold the appeal I will never know.
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Incandescent
post Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 10:51
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Well done on your win, but it will still be a risk taking the matter to adjudication as there are a number of "hanging" adjudicators, I'm afraid.
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 11:42
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There is a sign but it is at the far end of a long bus stop (approx. 35 metres) so it does not comply with guidance but the stills show you had stopped about 15 metres from the sign

its may your money and take your chance but as the PCN was dated 17th of Sept there is only until Wednesday to make reps


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Spurious
post Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 11:48
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 12:42) *
There is a sign but it is at the far end of a long bus stop (approx. 35 metres) so it does not comply with guidance but the stills show you had stopped about 15 metres from the sign

its may your money and take your chance but as the PCN was dated 17th of Sept there is only until Wednesday to make reps


I did in fact message the OP who told me that the PCN has now been paid.
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stamfordman
post Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 11:59
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Case CU53639127

Adjudicator Sean Stanton-Dunne


This PCN was issued for the alleged contravention of being stopped in a restricted bus stop in Pond Street at 9.58am on 20 June 2019.

I have looked at the CCTV footage submitted by the Council. This shows that Mr xxxx' car was stopped in a bus stop. However, I am unable to see any signage of bus stop restrictions in the footage and the Council submits no library images of any restriction signs at this location. I am not satisfied from the evidence that any restrictions were properly signed and I allow the appeal for that reason.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 11:59
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cp8759
post Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 17:40
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QUOTE (Spurious @ Sat, 12 Oct 2019 - 11:41) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 11 Oct 2019 - 21:40) *
Sounds like a case of the council messing up the evidence pack, not something we can really advise people to rely on.


Well that may well be the case but the evidence pack sent to me by Camden Council DID include two still images of the sign but none were present in the CCTV footage.

But we don't know that those images were in the evidence pack sent to the tribunal, the adjudicator explicitly stated that there are no library pictures in evidence.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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